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 My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.

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Starstrider
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Kayto_Karite
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My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 19:39

Vects Orbs may be useful to kill but not regain wounds. Even though Vect has 4W, because of T3 he technically only has 1W. If he is still alive and needs to recover wounds that means he already lost the only thing that can keep him alive which is his 2++.

If you compare Vect to other 40k SCs in 6th Edition, you realize he lacks pretty far behind.

Vect 240 (T3, 1W due ever character will probably ID him, 3+ AP3,

The Sanguinor 275 (EW, Buffs a Sergeant, +1A to units in a 6" bubble, 2+, JP, HQ Hunter, 3++ from sheer will)
Mephiston 250 (WS 7, S6, T6, W5, 7I, 5A, 2+, 3 psi powers, HQ Hunter)
Dante (EW, A5, 2+, 4++, H&R, debuffs a HQ)
Abaddon 275 (WS7, S8, T5, I6, 4+1d6, Shred, 2+, 4++)
Ahriman 250 (can turn vect into a spawn, 5 psi powers)
Eldrad (the best psyker in the game, weapon that wounds on 2+ and ignores armor)
etc...

So I still stand my ground that Vect in this edition is not worth his points anymore. The only thing he has going for him is 2++ and 2+ Lo,S!

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 20:03

@Starstrider wrote:


Actually, not true as you can never re-roll a re-roll. I will agree with you though that it is very hard for Vect to miss.

In the above scenerio, you never rerolled a reroll.

Because vect has BS 8, for him to miss, he needs to roll a "1", then a "1-3". This is not a reroll, it is still rolling to hit with his ballistic skill.

Preffered enemy lets you reroll to hit, so you can do it again.

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 20:07

That's true Vect is a waste of points. I think we are pigeonholed into 2 choices right now: the baron and a cheap Haemie. It's a shame that we have so many SC and HQ choices but in reality we can't use most of them if we want to win.

Sure for fun everything is almost viable, but in tournament play we are really predictable in our choices (most of the times, Haemie, even in 5th).
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StaticVortex
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 20:23

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@Starstrider wrote:


Actually, not true as you can never re-roll a re-roll. I will agree with you though that it is very hard for Vect to miss.

In the above scenerio, you never rerolled a reroll.

Because vect has BS 8, for him to miss, he needs to roll a "1", then a "1-3". This is not a reroll, it is still rolling to hit with his ballistic skill.

Preffered enemy lets you reroll to hit, so you can do it again.
Playing that out, you'd roll to hit getting a 1. PE states you can re-roll that...IF you get another 1, his BS8 allows you to roll again..this time needing a 4+. I do not believe, however, that you can re-roll for the 4+ because you have already used your PE re-roll.

Of course, all that is predicated by having rolled three 1's in a row...in which case you probably need to miss the attack anyway :p
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 20:45

Hmmm... PE lets you reroll misses... you do not miss until you roll a 1 followed by a 1-3. the second roll is not a reroll, just a continuation from rolling a "1".


Ah... just checked the BRB, page 13. They are calling it a reroll- so yes, you need to roll a 1, a 1, then a 1-3.
Not likely, but... there you go!

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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 21:40

@Ruke wrote:
Not instagib as it wounds against their leadership... but vect is beyond usefull... remember that when he hits with that blast attack, he regenerates wounds... Also, he only confers Preferred Enemy, not Fearless, which is a bag of mixed feelings with the change to PE...

Sorry, did I miss something? It wounds based on Ld., but that's the roll to wound.

It has nothing to do with the strength of the weapon being S10 vs. double toughness causing Instant Death.

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Guile22
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 22:27

I disagree with all the users on Urien Rakarth, making Grots S6 base is sick, S7 thanks to the furious charge that is automatic if they are rolling with him (which they should, 4 grots with a liquifier in a raider with him). Since he gets to add D3 pain tokens at the start of the game the Grots are guaranteed to start with 2, add his also and the unit starts with FnP, Furious charge and Fearless. So they can charge vehicles on S7 and hit on 3+, which is awesome, have protection with Rakarth against challenges, all are T5 so FnP is like invulnerable save against almost anything.

I roll also with an Arcon in their group for extra vehicle destruction/CC nastiness. If the arcon has a PGL and haywire grenade he will be throwing the grenade at BS7 and then using it again in CC with the vehicle he charges along with the Grots who all are S7 on the charge. Nastiness against vehicles and infantry in CC! Rakarth also has a casket of flensing in addition to his ichor gauntlet so they can hit an infantry squad with the liquifier, Casket and Archon's weapons before assaulting, and the PGL gives them Stealth on that charge to go with FnP so overwatch is limited. I think this is a great multi-purpose unit and has fared well in the 6th ed games i've played.
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 22:31

It is really expensive btw... to kill... vehicles? I don't think it's a problem anymore, ppl is starting to take flyiers and infantry.
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Guile22
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 22:43

This unit will excel at both infantry and vehicle destruction, thats the point. Having this unit (and 5 man suicide wych squads with haywire) allows me to confidently kit out my ravagers with disintegrators, not needing the darklances any longer. Ravagers with disintegrators makes the 2+ terminator scare irrelevant, they will die a horrible death to these.

Flyers are over-hyped, if you have been playing 6th ed (and running a voir raven or two) you realize these are not the game changer people are scared of, outside necron flyer spam and vendetta spam (which nobody in my gaming group has the cash to buy 9 flyer yet thank god lol)
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 22:48

I refuse to play against flyer spam. My tournament WAAC days are over, so I'm just happy to be playing in a gaming group where a-holes can't ruin my fun anymore.

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 22:55

I was thinking about that grot unit myself for quite some time but if you think about it, lances are cheaper and safer to kill both vehicles and infantry. Grots and Urien can't kill termies all that well, and against paladins you are basically screwed unless you take Malys (immune to force weapons). I did a list some time ago with grots, urien and malys at 1500:

Urien
Malys
3 Grots + 1 Aberration + Liquifier and Scissorhand (scissor is really strong right now, wound on 2+ rerollable per new poison rules and 8 attacks on the assoult is something scary)

3 venoms with warriors
6 reavers
2 ravagers
1 voidraven

But the thing is, if you don't run that Urien-star you can afford 6 blasterborns on venoms and 1 scourge squad, which i think they are better. By far.
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Guile22
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 23:01

@HB: Amen! I honestly like playing with certain units like Grots because I love the miniatures and am determined to make them work, which i've been able to do. It isn't always about some stupid spam list, a cool-looking army with diverse units makes for a fun game (and challenge). That's why I don't roll with a farseer, it just seems too cheesy to me personally, can't bring myself to do it...

@Ereshkigal: I definitely wouldn't roll this unit against termies, that is what the 2 ravagers loaded with disintegrators are for! I like the list but what about Raiders with warriors/splinter racks? This is my favorite unit in the entire De army now, warriors with a splinter cannon and splinter racks in a raider is badass, always run at least 2. You can move 6" and rapid fire 12" or regular 24" with re-rolls to hit, so awesome now.
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 23:07

Here is my 2000 pt list:

Archon (haywire, combat drugs, djin blade, PGL, SF) 150 pts

Urien Rakarth 190 pts

4x Grots, +1 S upgrade, liquifier, Raider with NS 240 pts

10x Wracks, 2x liquifier, Raider with NS 190 pts

10x Warriors, 1x Splinter cannon, Raider with NS, Splinter rack 180 pts

10x Warriors, 1x Splinter cannon, Raider with NS, Splinter rack 180 pts

5x wyches, haywire grenades, venom with extra splinter cannon 125 pts

5x wyches, haywire grenades, venom with extra splinter cannon 125 pts

5x Scourges, 2x Haywire Blaster 130 pts

Talos with chain flails, TL haywire blaster 115 pts

Ravager with disintegrators 105 pts

Ravager with disintegrators 105 pts

Void Raven Bomber with FF, 1x Shatterfield missle 165 pts





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Kayto_Karite
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 23:11

Well you can also try this.

3 x 1 Haemy w/ LG
Malys
3 Grots w/ LG, Aberration w/ Scissorhand
450pts

all for 10pts cheaper, and you get 4 templates of doom. Put them in a raider with retrofire jets and just deepstrike them in your opponents deployment area and keep him distracted. Also, in shooting its still T5 due to the majority rule.

Before I wouldn't agree with this unit, just because Deathstar in a DE list didn't work. I feel in this edition Deathstar got buffed compared to 5th edition.

I myself am thinking of this Deathstar Unit.

1 Baron Sathonyx, 105 pts
1 Yriel, Prince, 155 pts
10 Wraithguard, 399 pts 1 Spiritseer (Warlock) ( Conceal ; Spiritseer Upgrade; Singing Spear)
659pts

It has so many benefits.

T6 in shooting
10 12" guns that wound on 2+ (ID on 6), 3+ Glance (6+ Pen)
2 12" Spears that wound on 2+, S9 against mech (if i am reading the dex right, singing spears have there own rules and didnt get nerfed like witchblades)
Fearless
Stealth
Hit and Run
Yreil's weapon wounds on 2+ and ignores armor saves in CC
If you bring conceal, the unit is a 4+ Cover in the OPEN
Yreil grants 1+ on reserve rolls
Baron grants 1+ on deployment roll
3 Characters with invuls 2++, 2x 4++
5+ Deny the witch because the lock is a psyker

Am I missing anything?

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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 23:14

Yreil is indeed still pretty bad ass.
Not to mention his S6 AP3 blast will hamstring vehicles if he gets close to them.

I mentioned it briefly on my blog, but 10x Wraithguard, Baron, another 2++ HQ and Eldrad in one unit is just not fun to play against. T6 all around, 3+ saves, 4++ cover in the open with Conceal, and re-rollable on 2x ICs with 2++ to tank/distribute damage with Fortune.

I would have as much fun playing against this as 9x Vendettas (which I have before, and I spent the entire game in cover, rolling for Shrouding and hoping the game would end).

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 23:20

Too many points imho. Think about another DE player with 2 voidravens and a shattershard, 2 bombs on the deathstar and the shatter and what's left? Yes you have the saves (not against shattershard), but i don't think you'll survive.
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 23:23

@Ereshkigal wrote:
Too many points imho. Think about another DE player with 2 voidravens and a shattershard, 2 bombs on the deathstar and the shatter and what's left? Yes you have the saves (not against shattershard), but i don't think you'll survive.

I don't think in a vacuum like that though. I'm pretty sure if someone gave me any "deathstar" unit, I can come up with a pretty hard counter to it just as easy.

The point wasn't that it was points effective, or effective, just like any other Deathstar out there. The point was that it's a lame style to play and pretty infuriating for a lot of players.

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 00:42

@Skulnbonz wrote:

Kheradruakh-
Web- HAHAHAHAHA what a loser!

Reality- Hmmm... now wait just 1 second. In certain instances, he is not bad. if you infiltrate a 10 man unit of mandrakes, you can deploy this guy 1" away from them, joining him to the unit, giving them a pain token (feel no pain) opening their shooting and making them a decent unit!

Then you wake up, and in our reality (the true one, take the red pill neo) The decapitator is not an indepentent character, so he cannot join mandrakes and thus both are garbage. The web had it all along! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 07:21

@Ereshkigal wrote:
@Skulnbonz wrote:

Kheradruakh-
Web- HAHAHAHAHA what a loser!

Reality- Hmmm... now wait just 1 second. In certain instances, he is not bad. if you infiltrate a 10 man unit of mandrakes, you can deploy this guy 1" away from them, joining him to the unit, giving them a pain token (feel no pain) opening their shooting and making them a decent unit!

Then you wake up, and in our reality (the true one, take the red pill neo) The decapitator is not an indepentent character, so he cannot join mandrakes and thus both are garbage. The web had it all along! Razz

Well... the decapitator is garbage at least. I have stuck by Mandrakes in every edition, and they have been consistently undervalued. Still are I think.
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thelordhellion
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 12:16

the hate on the decrap is deserved

a. he cant join units
b. he is in reserve and might never arrive
c. ap3 insta kill on 6 weapon is a disgrace
d. cant assault when coming in, takes a turn of shots
e. 5++ fnp and stealth for a toughness 3 model with no eternal warrior......... a haha ha

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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 13:55

Regarding Vect's Obsidan Orbs, and the Orbs of despair, page 4 of the DE FAQ clearly states that you use the target's Leadership to work out if Instant Death applies. The FAQs contain similar rulings for most any weapon that rolls to wound against a different characteristic than Toughness.
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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 14:01

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Hmmm... PE lets you reroll misses... you do not miss until you roll a 1 followed by a 1-3. the second roll is not a reroll, just a continuation from rolling a "1".


Ah... just checked the BRB, page 13. They are calling it a reroll- so yes, you need to roll a 1, a 1, then a 1-3.
Not likely, but... there you go!

I'm glad to see you noticed on pg 13 how the re-roll for BS 6 or higher is indeed a re-roll. However, you are missing the point that both Preferred Enemy and his high BS are both re-rolls. It doesn't matter where your re-roll comes from, the fact is you can never re-roll a re-roll.

Tbh, this is barely worth arguing over as Vect is incredibly unlikely to miss with BS 8, even if he cannot re-roll for Preferred Enemy on top of that. I just hope you realise that even if re-rolls are being conferred from 2 seperate rules, a die cannot be re-rolled more than once.

Of course, why we are discussing about the re-rolls when he's using a blast weapon is a bit beyond me, come to think of it...
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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 16:27

@Allandrel wrote:
Regarding Vect's Obsidan Orbs, and the Orbs of despair, page 4 of the DE FAQ clearly states that you use the target's Leadership to work out if Instant Death applies. The FAQs contain similar rulings for most any weapon that rolls to wound against a different characteristic than Toughness.

I see it now.
Hmm.. that's a pretty stupid ruling and doesn't make much sense.

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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 22:34

DE FAQ wrote:
Q. When using Asdrubael Vects Obsidian Orbs or the Orb of Despair, do you use the targets toughness or leadership for the purposes of determining if instant death applies?

A. you use the targets leadership.

It wounds against their leadership, it would only make sense that it checks against that same stat for instagib... just like you check against a targets toughness for normal wounds...

@Starstrider: I think it was in relation to a throw HWG that the reroll comes up.

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PostSubject: Re: My review of all of our units in 6th Ed.   My review of all of our units in 6th Ed. - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 22:37

@Ruke wrote:
DE FAQ wrote:
Q. When using Asdrubael Vects Obsidian Orbs or the Orb of Despair, do you use the targets toughness or leadership for the purposes of determining if instant death applies?

A. you use the targets leadership.

It wounds against their leadership, it would only make sense that it checks against that same stat for instagib... just like you check against a targets toughness for normal wounds...

I'm saying that I think it's stupid a T4 unit becomes pseudo T8 when rolling to wound with a S10 weapon just because Ld.8 is their leadership. This is strictly talking about ID gib purposes.

Not sure if that's getting through.

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