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 Mandrake outflank question

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PostSubject: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 13:56

Ok, I only ask this because peeps here said you couldn't (first said you could, then couldn't...).

But having a heamy join a squad of Mandrakes and then outflanking them seems legit after reading the outflank rule. Because it says "atleast one model".

Correct? Or am I missing something?

They'll be able to baleblast turn 1 without losing their special rules which makes them interesting.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 15:20

I don't have my book in front of me, but it says that you can't deploy IC's with infiltrators unless they also are infiltrators.

However, I'm now wondering if that is in effect at all times, or just when deploying 'as infiltrators' (within 12" of enemies if out of LOS, 18" otherwise). Can you stick a haemy in if you're choosing to outflank instead? As I said, book is not in front of me, so I don't have access to the specific wording.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 16:06

It is: 'An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.'

But it's not made clear, if a unit is considered to be Infiltrators, if it just has got the Infiltrate special rule or if it has to actively use it.

I'd not try it, to not provoke arguments, though.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 17:56

^ I agree, though if I wanted to take it further, I'd argue that placing a unit in reserve so it can outflank is part of deployment, so you can't place a haemonculus in reserve as part of a mandrake unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 20:41

@Tiri Rana wrote:
It is: 'An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.'

But it's not made clear, if a unit is considered to be Infiltrators, if it just has got the Infiltrate special rule or if it has to actively use it.

I'd not try it, to not provoke arguments, though.

RAW you probably have a point - it suggests he can't join the unit at all. But on that interpretation, the Haemonculus couldn't join the Mandrakes during deployment even if, for some reason, you chose to deploy them normally (i.e. in your deployment zone at the same time as other troops). Presumably RAI is that he can't join a unit that is Infiltrating - but that still leaves open whether outflanking as a result of their Infiltrate ability counts as Infiltrating... (I would say probably so Sad )
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 21:31

outflanking is used due to infiltrate USR, so an outflank move is used by infiltrators, models that are prohibited to do so cant perform the special move.
More so, deployment counts for reserves i believe, when you have to nominate is that IC joining that squad or not, and since IC cant join infiltrators, a haem cant join mandrakes.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 23:12

Units don't need the Infiltrate special rule to outflank. They need the Outflank special rule, which they can either get by having the Infiltrate special rule, but also by having the Scout special rule, or by simply having the Outflank special rule. (Granted, I don't think there is any unit that has the Outflank special rule on its own, since it's a new special rule in 6th edition, but new units could get it)
These units can outflank with an attached Independent Character, that neither has the Scout, nor the Outflank special rule.

I think that the term Infiltrators is used to describe a unit that infiltrates and not a unit that could infiltrate, if they wanted but, as I said before, I won't try it. Partially to avoid arguments, partially because Mandrakes, our only Infiltrator/Scout/Outflank unit is just not worth it. However this doesn't change the fact that the Infiltrate special rule is either written poorly or substantially weaker than Scout or Outflank and to me it just doesn't make sense, that Infiltrators can't bring ICs along to outflank, because they are stealthier than Scouts.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 00:30

@Tiri Rana wrote:
I think that the term Infiltrators is used to describe a unit that infiltrates and not a unit that could infiltrate, if they wanted [...] However this doesn't change the fact that the Infiltrate special rule is either written poorly or substantially weaker than Scout or Outflank and to me it just doesn't make sense, that Infiltrators can't bring ICs along to outflank, because they are stealthier than Scouts.

Poorly written, yes. But Mandrakes don't have Scout or Outflank, they only have Infiltrate.

My understanding is: Infiltrate allows them to outflank, but when they do it's because of the Infiltrate special rule, which can't be shared with ICs. Had they been given Infiltrate and Outflank, then they could have brought an IC along. (This isn't watertight - I could imagine it being FAQ'd differently without saying they'd just changed the rule - but it seems to be the consensus reading of the rules as they currently stand.)

I don't agree that this makes Infiltrate weaker than Scout or Outflank though, it's just different: they can do things that those with Scout or Outflank can't (and obviously units with two or more rules can do more).
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 03:02

if all you have is haemies you can roll on the personal warlord table and hope for a 3... that happened to me tonight (different unit though)

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 07:41

Thnx for answering guys.

*Gives each Mandrake a little kiss on the head before putting them back on the shelf to collect some more dust*

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 09:42

idk what all the fuss is... mandrakes arent all that hard to use... just shoot up the squad you want to assault, run in with your mandrakes and get your first pain token... then shoost a lot with your shoosting attack and pin dudes...

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 10:19

@Ruke wrote:
idk what all the fuss is... mandrakes arent all that hard to use... just shoot up the squad you want to assault, run in with your mandrakes and get your first pain token... then shoost a lot with your shoosting attack and pin dudes...

Never said I found them hard to use. For me I just can't justify their points in serious games. I've used them in fun games though.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 11:45

@Ruke wrote:
idk what all the fuss is... mandrakes arent all that hard to use... just shoot up the squad you want to assault, run in with your mandrakes and get your first pain token... then shoost a lot with your shoosting attack and pin dudes...

If your shooting takes out everything except one small, arthritic ratling with poor eyesight and bad case of asthma then the Mandrakes may stand a chance to finish it off and grab that pain token. Anything stronger than that though I wouldn't bet on the Mandrakes beating them. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 12:06

so to put it: outflanking vendetta, yes please, outflanking warwalkers, yes please, outflanking mandrakes, no please

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 13:31

Oddly enough, the author of the latest BolS article ("Tips and Tricks for Surviving 6th") believes that you CAN put a non-infiltrating IC with infiltrators for the purposes of outflanking. I looked at the USR again, and it states that you can't put the IC in "during deployment", but wording earlier in the same section seems to draw a definite distinction between 'deploying' and 'moving in from reserves'.

So, really, this needs to be FAQ'd by GW.

After all, Mandrakes might be (occasionally) worthwhile.. IF they could be used as a liquifier/shattershard delivery system to the opponent's back line.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 13:36

@Ben_S wrote:
Poorly written, yes. But Mandrakes don't have Scout or Outflank, they only have Infiltrate.
But Mandrakes have the Outflank special rule. In 6th the Infiltrate special rule confers the Outflank special rule, so they are treated as if they had both.

@Ben_S wrote:
My understanding is: Infiltrate allows them to outflank, but when they do it's because of the Infiltrate special rule, which can't be shared with ICs.
That's exactly how it worked in 5th, but Outflank is it's own special rule now.

@Ben_S wrote:
Had they been given Infiltrate and Outflank, then they could have brought an IC along. (This isn't watertight - I could imagine it being FAQ'd differently without saying they'd just changed the rule - but it seems to be the consensus reading of the rules as they currently stand.)

I don't agree that this makes Infiltrate weaker than Scout or Outflank though, it's just different: they can do things that those with Scout or Outflank can't (and obviously units with two or more rules can do more).
I agree, a unit that has more special rules should always be able to do more, than a unit with less.
And that's the problem I have with this rule. It either means that a unit that infiltrates can't be accompanied by an IC that doesn't have Infiltrate at deployment, but can be if it doesn't. Or it means that a unit of Infiltrators can never be accompanied by an IC that doesn't have Infiltrate at deployment. (at least I don't see an other way to interpret what is written.)
If it's the first one than there's no problem they can outflank, scout, come from the table edge or be deployed normally without restriction and use their Infiltrate special rule with it's restrictions.
But if it's the second than we have a problem, because a unit that has the Infiltrate special rule does not only gain a new ability but looses others, which makes it weaker than a unit that doesn't have Infiltrate.

Space Marine Scouts for example have the Infiltrate and Scout special rules, so they could not outflank, scout, come from their table edge or be deployed normally with an attached Captain, but if they didn't have the Infiltrate special rule, they could.

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 14:39

@Tiri Rana wrote:
It either means that a unit that infiltrates can't be accompanied by an IC that doesn't have Infiltrate at deployment, but can be if it doesn't. Or it means that a unit of Infiltrators can never be accompanied by an IC that doesn't have Infiltrate at deployment. (at least I don't see an other way to interpret what is written.)
If it's the first one than there's no problem they can outflank, scout, come from the table edge or be deployed normally without restriction and use their Infiltrate special rule with it's restrictions.
But if it's the second than we have a problem, because a unit that has the Infiltrate special rule does not only gain a new ability but looses others, which makes it weaker than a unit that doesn't have Infiltrate.

Space Marine Scouts for example have the Infiltrate and Scout special rules, so they could not outflank, scout, come from their table edge or be deployed normally with an attached Captain, but if they didn't have the Infiltrate special rule, they could.

Yes, I pointed that problem out above. That's one of the reasons why I think the rule is badly written. RAW you can't deploy your captain with your scouts even if you deploy them normally - but I'd be pretty annoyed at any friendly opponent who objected to this. I think it should be allowed, because I think RAI only prohibit the character joining the unit if they are using their ability to infiltrate.

The implication for outflanking is less clear, as I said. Again, the RAW seem to prohibit it simply by disallowing the character joining the unit altogether. But, even though I'm prepared to ignore the RAW in the normal deployment case, and (in effect) house rule that the character can join unless actually infiltrating, here I think there's a case to be made that they are using their Infiltrate ability in order to outflank - because Mandrakes don't have the ability to Outflank except via Infiltrate (whereas some other unit might).

At least played this way a unit that has Outflank and Infiltrate isn't entirely redundant. But in general I think the tendency of GW to say 'rule X bestows rule Y' is another example of bad writing. It would be far clearer to just give rule Y to the units that merit it, allowing them also to create units that have rule X and not rule Y.

As I said, this isn't watertight. The guy at BoLS obviously reads it the other way (though some of his interpretations are clearly questionable - see the comments). It needs to be FAQ'd really.

(Edited because I thought you said SM Scouts had Infiltrate and Outflank; but it was Scout you said.)
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 18:25

There is another problem with infiltrate, read the first paragraph

"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, ..."

That does not say may not be, or when deploying with this rule etc. It is worded strongly, just as

"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."

is worded strongly.

The first paragraph implies that infiltrating units MUST be set up as infiltrators, making giving them outflank entirely redundant. I would suggest that you either read both of these paragraphs as modal i.e. attach "If a unit uses the infiltrate special rule then" to the front of each or you read neither as modal in which case them having outflank is ridiculous and they can not normally deploy under any circumstances.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 20:11

That's another very good point. Again, I'd be inclined to ignore that and assume that they can choose not to Infiltrate if they wish - but of course not all USRs should be optional, since some have bad sides.
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 22:57

you dont have to deploy infiltrators far out in front... just deploy a lone haem in your deployment zone, then deploy your mandrakes with him when it comes time...

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 08:47

@Tiri: I've been reading this part over and over:

"It either means that a unit that infiltrates can't be accompanied by an IC that doesn't have Infiltrate at deployment, but can be if it doesn't. Or it means that a unit of Infiltrators can never be accompanied by an IC that doesn't have Infiltrate at deployment"

And... dude... what? Lol. I don't get it (but I have an excuse... I'm Dutch). Could you explain it in another way please?

@Ben_S: I think what you said here: "because Mandrakes don't have the ability to Outflank except via Infiltrate " is essential. That is why I think what Tiri Rana said: "because a unit that has the Infiltrate special rule does not only gain a new ability but looses others, which makes it weaker than a unit that doesn't have Infiltrate." is also true. It's why models that explicitly have more USRs in their unit entries (like Infiltrate AND Outflank AND Scout) have and and and... While if you only have Infiltrate (like Mandrakes) it can overrule certain parts of the USR it refers to, I guess.

@Drager: After reading your comments I've been reading, reading, rading those USRs.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My conclusion is the same as all of you, except that I do not doubt to be honest (RAW + RAI in harmony)... Because Mandrakes only have Infiltrate as USR in their description it overrules any USR it might refer to (in this case Outflank). Infiltrate overrules Outflank on many points except the: "Roll a D6 on 1-2... tableedge... blabla." BUT why would we use that when we can set up anywhere on the table 12" or 18" away from the enemy? In others words IMHO the reference to outflank is completely redundant. 'Cause the only effect of Outflank which is not overruled by Infiltrate is not important.

So yeah, IC's can never join Mandrakes and the Outflank bit does nothing for them. That's my conclusion.
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WAIT!

What if the Mandrakes 'outflank' (so roll a D6 and come from a tableedge) instead of 'infiltrate' (deploy 12" from enemy or 18") would they then be confering the Outflank USR to the IC that joined? Infiltrate confers the Outflank USR and it doesn't say anywhere you háve to infiltrate right?

I know 'Drager' said that bit about: "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, ..." BUT... Even if you deploy LAST as the sentence says, you're still DEPLOYING right? So it's still: "During deployment..." as USR 'Outflank' says, right? So attach Heamy to Mandrakes, declare them outflanking during deployment and deploy them last from the tableedge the D6 said.

Or do we still say the IC cannot join because of the Infiltrate USR? Nomatter hów exactly you deploy?

Ok, THIS is my conclusion! Shoot at will (and sorry for the wall of txt showing you my thoughtprocess)... *hides*

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 10:35

@tlronin wrote:
@Tiri: I've been reading this part over and over:

"It either means that a unit that infiltrates can't be accompanied by an IC that doesn't have Infiltrate at deployment, but can be if it doesn't. Or it means that a unit of Infiltrators can never be accompanied by an IC that doesn't have Infiltrate at deployment"

Just wanted to say, that it's up to debate if a unit having the Infiltrate special rule always counts as a unit of Infiltrators (and so can never have an attached IC) or if they only count as Infiltrators, if they actually infiltrate (and so could have an attached IC, if they don't ifiltrate), but that is outdated with this post, so nevermind.

@tlronin wrote:
@Ben_S: I think what you said here: "because Mandrakes don't have the ability to Outflank except via Infiltrate " is essential. That is why I think what Tiri Rana said: "because a unit that has the Infiltrate special rule does not only gain a new ability but looses others, which makes it weaker than a unit that doesn't have Infiltrate." is also true. It's why models that explicitly have more USRs in their unit entries (like Infiltrate AND Outflank AND Scout) have and and and... While if you only have Infiltrate (like Mandrakes) it can overrule certain parts of the USR it refers to, I guess.

That seem to be true at least partially, because the Infiltrate special rule says: 'Having Infiltrate also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Infiltrators that are kept as reserves.'

@tlronin wrote:
@Drager: After reading your comments I've been reading, reading, rading those USRs.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My conclusion is the same as all of you, except that I do not doubt to be honest (RAW + RAI in harmony)... Because Mandrakes only have Infiltrate as USR in their description it overrules any USR it might refer to (in this case Outflank). Infiltrate overrules Outflank on many points except the: "Roll a D6 on 1-2... tableedge... blabla." BUT why would we use that when we can set up anywhere on the table 12" or 18" away from the enemy? In others words IMHO the reference to outflank is completely redundant. 'Cause the only effect of Outflank which is not overruled by Infiltrate is not important.

So yeah, IC's can never join Mandrakes and the Outflank bit does nothing for them. That's my conclusion.
.
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WAIT!

What if the Mandrakes 'outflank' (so roll a D6 and come from a tableedge) instead of 'infiltrate' (deploy 12" from enemy or 18") would they then be confering the Outflank USR to the IC that joined? Infiltrate confers the Outflank USR and it doesn't say anywhere you háve to infiltrate right?

I know 'Drager' said that bit about: "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, ..." BUT... Even if you deploy LAST as the sentence says, you're still DEPLOYING right? So it's still: "During deployment..." as USR 'Outflank' says, right? So attach Heamy to Mandrakes, declare them outflanking during deployment and deploy them last from the tableedge the D6 said.

That is not how Outflank works. First the unit has to be kept in reserves, but yes that happens during deployment. Then they will come in from the table edge when they arrive turn two or later.

@tlronin wrote:
Or do we still say the IC cannot join because of the Infiltrate USR? Nomatter hów exactly you deploy?

Ok, THIS is my conclusion! Shoot at will (and sorry for the wall of txt showing you my thoughtprocess)... *hides*

That is the big question here and while I'd like it to be otherwise it is pretty clear that outflanking Mandrakes are still Infiltrators and so can't be accompanied by a Haemy, but does this apply to other units, like SM Scouts, who have other means to deploy, too?
After rereading the paragraph I think so. It is like Drager said. Units that have the Infiltrate special rule must always be deployed last. This is not optional. They can be set up anywhere on the table (12" away from enemys out of LOS or 18" away in LOS) and they may infiltrate or outflank aboard their dedicated transport or they can be kept in normal reserves or can be set up in your own deployment zone, but they must always do so last.
And because they always follow this rule they are always Infiltrators and so can never be accompanied by an IC, that doesn't have the Infiltrate special rule, during deployment.

*emphasis by me

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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 10:38

Outflanking is amazing in the hammer of wrath table setup... Anyway, there's a lot more wording to suggest that infiltrating is optional like "A unit that deploys using these rules cannot assault on the first turn" which basically says that a unit can choose not to infiltrate. Also, there is the line "Having the infiltrate special rule also confers the outflank special rule to units of infiltrators that are kept in reserves".

Reading through it, it seems to me that it says that while some units may ONLY have the outflank special rule (like rolling a 3 on the warlord table), ANY unit with the infiltrate special rule may choose to outflank (or deploy as normal for that matter).

**Edit**

Awww... Tiri you beat me too it... you're no fun... XD

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Mandrake outflank question Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 11:51

Hhmm... Is the unit an Outflanker because it deploys outflanking. Is the unit Infiltrators because it deploys infiltrating. Or does none of this matter because it has the Infiltrate USR, so it's an Infiltrator, period.

We are inclined to lean to the underlined conclusion and I can see it too. I can see it otherwise too though, mind you, but... I'm convinced now of the latter.

Therefor no heamy with mandrakes as per the USR Infiltrator.

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Ben_S
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Mandrake outflank question Empty
PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 15:35

@Ruke wrote:
there's a lot more wording to suggest that infiltrating is optional like "A unit that deploys using these rules cannot assault on the first turn" which basically says that a unit can choose not to infiltrate.

I don't see how you get that infiltrating is optional from the bit that you just quoted there. It doesn't say anything like 'a unit that chooses to deploy using these rules', so it's quite compatible with any unit that can having to deploy in this fashion.

(The second passage you quote is more apt: it seems that you can not infiltrate if you're in reserve. Though this doesn't really settle some of the other questions here.)
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PostSubject: Re: Mandrake outflank question   Mandrake outflank question I_icon_minitime

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