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HERO
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 18:08

@Eggshall123 wrote:
so. terminators are supposedly god-like in toughness now eh? why? I may be missing something but from what i see, its just because of power weapons becoming AP3 right? well how often do we, as dark eldr use power weapons? sometimes on archons but very rarely. so is their something im missing to why terminators are god-like now? Question

Is this serious?

I use Agonizers ALL the time. It was the great equalizers that made Dark Eldar scary in melee.

Now they're complete garbage against Terminators, a Venom Blade is much better for forcing saves. Volume of wounds is what beats out Terminators, and the best result of that comes from ranged.

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Farmer
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 18:34

HEROBEAR wrote:
@Eggshall123 wrote:
so. terminators are supposedly god-like in toughness now eh? why? I may be missing something but from what i see, its just because of power weapons becoming AP3 right? well how often do we, as dark eldr use power weapons? sometimes on archons but very rarely. so is their something im missing to why terminators are god-like now? Question

Is this serious?

I use Agonizers ALL the time. It was the great equalizers that made Dark Eldar scary in melee.

Now they're complete garbage against Terminators, a Venom Blade is much better for forcing saves. Volume of wounds is what beats out Terminators, and the best result of that comes from ranged.

Venoms Blades are just as terrible as Agonisers. Personally i wouldnt rely on my opponent to fail his 2+ saves in close combat.

Instead i would try put 84 poison shots into a unit of TH/SS Termies and against your regular Terminators fire Dark Lances assuming i havent got any disintegrators in my list.
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HERO
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 18:37

@Farmer wrote:
HEROBEAR wrote:
@Eggshall123 wrote:
so. terminators are supposedly god-like in toughness now eh? why? I may be missing something but from what i see, its just because of power weapons becoming AP3 right? well how often do we, as dark eldr use power weapons? sometimes on archons but very rarely. so is their something im missing to why terminators are god-like now? Question

Is this serious?

I use Agonizers ALL the time. It was the great equalizers that made Dark Eldar scary in melee.

Now they're complete garbage against Terminators, a Venom Blade is much better for forcing saves. Volume of wounds is what beats out Terminators, and the best result of that comes from ranged.

Venoms Blades are just as terrible as Agonisers. Personally i wouldnt rely on my opponent to fail his 2+ saves in close combat.

Instead i would try put 84 poison shots into a unit of TH/SS Termies and against your regular Terminators fire Dark Lances assuming i havent got any disintegrators in my list.

You missed my point about Venom Blades entirely, and then re-stated what I just said in your post.

Why?

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Ben_S
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 21:55

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@MasterofPuppets wrote:
You could send Lelith at standard termies because her attacks ignore armor and technically aren't power weapons, so therefore you aren't wearing armor when you fight her. I checked the FAQ and it doesn't say she has power weapons and her special rules states she ignores armor. What do you guys think, viable?

It's well-established that her attacks ignore armour but unfortunately, unless she has 2 Pain Tokens, even with 11 attacks on the charge against Terminators she only causes 2-3 wounds, one of which may still be saved by the Terminators' 5++. She's slightly more survivable now though as long as she is in a unit as she has a 2++ Look Out Sir! save.

If her attacks ignore armour then don't they also ignore the 5++ invulnerable save conferred by terminator armour? They may not ignore all invulnerable saves (e.g. maybe not against Mandrakes, whose invulnerable save is not conferred by armour), but the terminators' 5++ is due to their armour. Or does her rule say something about only ignoring regular armour saves and not invulnerable saves?

(Agree that the S3 attacks are still limited though.)
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 22:07

@Ben no, armor saves are armor saves, cover saves are cover saves, invul saves are invul saves.

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Ben_S
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 22:23

@Enfernux: That's why I was asking what the rules said (don't have Codex to hand). What I quoted said she ignores armour, not ignores armour saves - and I said if she ignores armour, then she should ignore the 5++ too. But if the rule is only armour saves then no.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 22:31

It says her attacks ignore armour saves, not that they ignore armour, so they'd still get their 5++, sorry.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 22:38

if she would ignore armor, she could charge through and inside vehicles, for they have an armor value. Smile Would be fun, but no Sad

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 02:39

Quote :
if she would ignore armor, she could charge through and inside vehicles, for they have an armor value. Would be fun, but no

I loled

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thelordhellion
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 04:41

you are saying Lelith's blades can cut through termie armour? No........she just finds weak spots in the armour like the back of knees etc to stick that blade in.... to stop lelith from causing you an injury you have to hide in a box... FEAR THE HAYWIRE GRENADE! *evil laugh!*

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stealthy327
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 05:29

Yeah I'm not seeing the problem with termies...lots of poison will drop them like flies. I wiped out a squad of 10 grey nights with 9 hellions and a baron and 2 necrotoxin missiles. Granted he did manage to roll a lot of ones but that is how termies die. Just make them roll and they will eventually fail!

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 09:55

Well I dunno about termies, but I've just had a game against Tau. The idea was to shoot up the commander and his two bodyguards and assault what was left with my wyches, so I shot them with two venoms, five warriors, and the wyches (throwing one plasma grenade), and all it did was shoot down one Tau frisbee . I was pretty much commited to the assault by then, but the wyches just got cut down by their flamers and the Tau simply laughed at the ones that made it. Sad Those three robo-techs shot down all of my transports with their plasma things, one per turn, moving wherever they liked as if they were invulnerable... and they pretty much were.

I probably should have dark lanced them to begin with (or brought disintegrators), but I thought I needed to take out the tanks with the railguns instead and I didn't remember these guys being so tough. Well of course I didn't... one Hekatrix with an Agoniser used to be enough to send them running. Now, not so much.

I wouldn't say they're godlike, but if I learned anything today... 2+ saves are no joke.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 10:00

broadsides have 2+ saves, or ONE commander can have irridium armor, making him move d6 or jump 6, but with 2+, tau battlesuits have 3+, some times 4++.
When i run my tau, i usually take 1-2 suicide DS xv8s, with TL-flamers and shield gens. Reroll fail to wounds, ignore coversave, 3+4++, t4 2 wounds anyone? Smile

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 10:19

@Enfernux wrote:
broadsides have 2+ saves, or ONE commander can have irridium armor, making him move d6 or jump 6, but with 2+, tau battlesuits have 3+, some times 4++.
When i run my tau, i usually take 1-2 suicide DS xv8s, with TL-flamers and shield gens. Reroll fail to wounds, ignore coversave, 3+4++, t4 2 wounds anyone? Smile

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that I was lied to?
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 10:26

XV8 crisis battlesuit s5t4 3up save
XV88 broadside battlesuit s5t4 2up save
irridium armor - special issue wargear - confers 2up save, walking speed modified to d6
XV15 and 25 stealthsuit s3t3 3up save, nightfight usr against them.

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Chiefio
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 12:10

Basically, the only Tau people that should be making a 2+ save is the broadside (XV-88 battlesuit) or one person with the fancy, slow armour; the crisis battlesuits (XV8) should just be making 3+ saves. Those armour code names always confuse me.

For Tau I'd be tempted to ignore Hammerheads (the tanks with the rail guns) until all the battlesuits are taken out; they can be a major thorn in your side, while the 'head just soak up fire. The last time I played Tau I spent all game shooting at my opponents' Hammerhead and only managed to immobilise it (which makes no difference to a 72" gun), when I should have been focussing on his battlesuits. That was 5th edition, mind.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 17:24

@Chiefio wrote:
Basically, the only Tau people that should be making a 2+ save is the broadside (XV-88 battlesuit) or one person with the fancy, slow armour; the crisis battlesuits (XV8) should just be making 3+ saves.

Actually, it's the one person with the fancy armour and his attached frisbees, unless we are doing something wrong.

So if you keep the frisbees out in front, then bodyguards, then the commander, all wounds against this unit get a 2+ save until the frisbees are removed as casualties and cleared from the front. They passed all of their saves except one, and so wounds never even reached the battlesuits.

@Enfernux wrote:

irridium armor - special issue wargear - confers 2up save, walking speed modified to d6.

I think it only modifies their special move in the assault phase, and not their normal move?
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 19:24

The drones don't have a 2+ save. Gun drones have 5+ and shield drones a 4++, I think. Been a while since I've looked at the Tau codex.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 21:44

I looked it up: 'Shield Drones always have the same Toughness and Armour Save values as the individual they accompany.''

AND a 4++ as well.


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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 21:44

Sorry, double posted : (
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 04:03

@Agatha: unless they are broadside battlesuits, they have 3+, ONE model in the army may have 2+, besides broadsides, for irridium armor is special issue wargear, that can only be taken once per army.
XV8s have 3+
Drones have same SAVE as owner. not toughness, save.
So a boradside droan has 2+4++, a crisis drone has 3+4++, a fire warrior drone has 4+4++
Edit: @Nomic gun, marker and sniper drones have 4+ AS.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 05:02

@Enfernux wrote:
@Agatha: unless they are broadside battlesuits, they have 3+, ONE model in the army may have 2+, besides broadsides, for irridium armor is special issue wargear, that can only be taken once per army.
XV8s have 3+
Drones have same SAVE as owner. not toughness, save.
So a boradside droan has 2+4++, a crisis drone has 3+4++, a fire warrior drone has 4+4++


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Count Adhemar
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Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 10:13

Barking Agatha is correct. Page 31 of Tau Codex refers.

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xzandrate
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 23:16

Also, didn't the faq give stealth suits stealth and shrouding now? So almost any cover takes them to a 2+ vs shooting.

As far as dealing with 2+ saves, we do have some of the best tools for dealing with it. Virtually everything we have is ap2 or high rate of fire poison. then we have some interesting toys like liquifiers. For assault, beasts are still cheap and effective, rending is ap2.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: are terminators really godlike?   are terminators really godlike? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 09:08

@xzandrate: most of the covers are 5+, i think ruins give 4+, so they would get a 3+ cs, compared to their 3+ as, but it does make them have a save against some of the weapons, like ap1, 2, 3.
and let me math it out for you, vs hammernators
ap2 weapons
disintegrator: kills 0.44 a turn. So you need 2.25 disintegrators, to kill a hammernator. ONE model.
darklance: 0.185 a turn. So 5.4 Darklances are needed to kill a hammernator.
Demiklaves(klaivex s5): 0.59 a turn. 1.69 Demiklaves a turn kill a hammernator.
Demiklaves(Drazhar, s4): 0.77, (s6): 0.92. So 1.29/1.08 Drazhar is needed to killa termie a turn.

and now for the splinter weapons. I'll just count the number of shots needed Smile
0.05termi/shot. 20 splinter shots will put down one termi. You can guess it: gunboat at rapidfire range.
This made me think: can i___ move to rapid fire range with the gunboat, shoot, then flat out, with the raider? After all, flat out is done in the shooting phase now.

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