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Roc
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PostSubject: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 18:45

First off, I just want to express how nice it is to come across a dedicated DE forum. I had given up looking years ago, and just decided to try again with the new edition. So with that, Hi All cheers

As I was reading through the boards, I noticed the lamentation of some concerning WWPs in the new edition. I have been playing DE since their inception, have always loved WWPs, but could never bring myself to use them for some reason or other, although I each edition I start toying around with the idea. So here are the thoughts I've come up with so far:

There are a handful of new rules that come into play with the portals. Most things to keep in mind:

Maximum 1/2 Units in reserves to start the game.
No assaulting out of the portal.
Increased chances of a reserve unit appearing.
Strategic Warlord Traits.
Increased usefulness of Hellions and Reavers.
Perceived vulnerability of Vehicles.
Grenades.
Increased charge ranges.

What all of this means is that WWP lists will probably operate very differently than they have done in the past. For instance, with an almost 60% chance of nightfighting the first round of a game, the webway deployers could get a lot more protection on Turn 1.

Also, with only half the army in reserve, you'll need a force capable of handling itself from the get-go.

However, this is balanced out by 2 out of every 3 units in reserve coming out of reserve in T2 (or 5 out of 6 depending on your strategic traits roll).

Therefore, while you may have fewer units in reserve, you're more likely to have an entire army, minus one or two units on the board come turn 2.

Now, while you can no longer assault out of the portal anymore, you can still shoot (and therefore lob grenades). As such, wyches, ICs, Scourges, warriors, and quins can all lob grenades of some sort coming out of the portal.

Now the question becomes: what is the purpose of a WWP?

In my opinion, the WWP has always been the key to a raiderless, or even vehicle-less force. There is a number of benefits to these (including the fact that by not taking any prime targets for anti-tank, your opponent has now automatically overspent on any AT he has purchased. It allows certain normally vulnerable squads to get within attack range reliably, without a vehicle (blasterborn off the top of my head, and with PG, they now have an extra anti-meq shot).

The other use is transporting CC units across the board. This is the use that has likely taken the most hits, however I still believe this is viable with an army that makes proper use of cover, reavers (or anything with a jink save), and other intervening models.

The trick will be to send units that have built-in invuls or cover saves to screen the portal CC only units. i.e. Mandrakes, Reavers, Khymarae /'quins (coming out of the WWP first) other vehicles you do take (bare venoms perhaps?), anything that can soak up firepower to some extent, or find decent cover to drop the WWP into.

The other important piece will be to have already fast units being the ones on the board already (with an exception for scourges, or hellions in some cases, who might do better coming out of a portal).

The basic premise is that your army now has two halves: one that can move fast enough to meet up with the deployers from the WWP, and those in reserve who use the WWP to close the distance without being subjected to enemy firepower.

So starting with the reavers, hellions, mandrakes, etc. on the board, then with the true fire support emerging from the portal (taloi, chronos, etc.) you can have a non-vehicle list that does not lose the speed you are accustomed to, derives your opponent of meaningful AT targets, floods him with infantry, and does so more reliably than before.

Also, with the new assault rules, you'll still have a 20" assault threat range for fleet units (though they will have to undergo a turn of being shot at with 5+ or 4+ cover saves.

All in all I think this is still useful, and the proper execution of which can serve to surprise opponents and throw them off their game a bit. Will this see massive use in WAAC tournaments? Probably not. Can it still be highly competitive in local tournaments or friendly matches? I think so.

Any thoughts?





Last edited by Roc on Tue Jul 10 2012, 19:02; edited 1 time in total
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StaticVortex
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 18:59

I'm interested - I've not played with WWPs so far, filling vehicle slots with more bodies however does sound interesting. Are you thinking something like an Archon in Venom going 12" + 18"+ 2D6" across the board to hide next to some cover first turn, then getting out and deploying WWP turn 2?
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 20:51

Especially now since rederves come in on an unmodified 3+, it is more crucial than ever to deploy the WWP turn one. You don't want to risk your units getting stuck and having to walk in grom the table edge (especially not with Hammer and Anvil deployment!)

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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 21:40

In fact, the unmodified three is what makes the force viable imho. I was actually looking at a pair of haemonculi in venoms for the deployment job (though I could be swayed), so that when one deploys it can attach to a mandrake squad, and when the other deploys it can attach to the squad less poised to get its PT that turn.

So while it's not quite a vehicle-less list, I'm comfortable spending the extra points on the delivery system. It's not like two glorified vipers are going to give the AT weapons much to do that a good old fashioned bolter drill probably couldn't accomplish better anyway (and that just soaks up more AI fire!)
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 22:50

Heya Roc! pirat *waves back* Wow - love the ideas here! Welcome to forum buddy: I hope you'll find us to be a very friendly and helpful forum with some good discussions and ideas - its been a bit heated in this last week or so since 6th ed came out, but I think we're all realising now that its better to simply crack on and come up with constructive solutions rather than worry and slip into a pit of sorrow!

I'm going to be testing out some WWP ideas for a 1500pt game tomorrow - the thread link is this:
https://www.thedarkcity.net/t3473-1500pts-wwp-experimental-list-ready-for-game-on-weds-11th-july

What do you think of using Mandrakes as a 'run to' spot for the WWP bearing Haemonculus? The Wych Raider then goes Flat Out in the shooting phase (I love the fluidity of skimmer to be able to do this in the shooting phase - I think it will turn out to open loads of new tactics for the DE later)

I'm quite keen to run a hybrid list with some mech, some reserved combat units (and scourges) and some multi-taskers sat on the table already backed up with a razorwing

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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 23:06

@dangerous, Mandrakes have always been my go-to run-to spot for haemonculi. My marine opponents had even made them a priority at one point, because they hated the 18 st. 4 shots plus hexrifle from those dang things in 3+ cover (now 4+, unless I can get creative).

Checked out your list and have a small suggestion I will be posting on the thread. It looks like it will provide a solid learning experience!
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 00:23

I hope that at some point in the future our WWP gets faqed to work more like the webway assault in apoc (where you can move into one and out of another)

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StaticVortex
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 15:16

A note on terrain in 6th. If you're in trees, you have to roll to see what kind of forest you get - hope for ironbark for the bump in cover saves.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 16:55

Hands up anyone who is going to be ignoring enchanted forests in non-tournament games. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 17:58

cheers
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 18:18

i suspect it'll be the same as fantasy, mystical terrain is completely ignored!
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Lord Clazaryn
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 01:16

Yep. It was funny, I suggested my brother send his scouts into such a forest and it ate half of them. Imagine what it would do to our lowly Kabalites!

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 02:46

Actually I used/am using both mysterious terrain AND a webway portal in a game that i am playing (currently on hold for a few hours). The mysterious terrain was meh (the one that gives 2+ save vs grenades and negates the effects of grenades when charging). We only played out turn 1, so I havn't been able to use my portal yet, but I have a unit of grots with Urien coming out of that, as well as a unit of scourges, and then i have some eldar harlies with a 'seer that got outflank from the warlord traits... on hammer and anvil deployment, there's going to be some hurt going on very shortly...

vs orks

I'm relatively positive im going to table him...

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 06:00

I actually enjoy magic terrain in WHFB and look forward to it in 6E 40k.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 14:08

I've been playing by the rules in order to learn them, and learn them well. Depending on the event, we may or may not use the mysterious terrain. Too early to tell really, as it does add a dynamic to the game and affect strategy.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 17:10

I have been following the cries of WWP Nerf throughout the internet. I myself feel a little bummed from the change between editions. My army since the dex came out was WWP. I agree with mostly everything you say when it comes to the WWP, but I feel like adding my 2 cents.

1. I believe WWPs should be used for shooting elements or really slow CC units.
Reavers (6 man w/ Blasters or Heat Lances)
Scourges (5 man w/ Haywire or Blasters)
Blasterborn (3 or 4 man)
Warriors (10 man w/ Blaster and Splinter Cannon)
Harliquins (5 man w/ Shadowseer and Death Jester)
Talos/Chronos

2. I see hellions w/ baron and haemy being great ways to deploy a WWP. Sit in cover with stealth and FNP turn 1. If you get assaulted before you can deploy your WWP you can just Hit and Run now that it is granted to the Haemy, then during your turn drop the WWP. This also counts as 3 units for the 50% reserve rules.

3. You can ally with Eldar and bring a cheap Autarch (however your spell that.) Now your flyers and units using the WWP come in on turn 2 with a 2+ for reserve rolls. I am thinking about bringing Yreil due to his weapon is a 2+ to wound, ignores armor saves, at his Initiative, and he has the +1 to reserves as well.

4. I have a WWP List made on my blog if anyone would want to take a look at it, the link is in my signature.

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 20:25

Good words from Kayto_Karite and let us not forget that Night Fighting rules in 50% of games in the first turn will also help the deploying escorts as well (not to mention the 3+ change for reserves to enter the game).

Honestly, the wwp deploying tactics got better than 5th edition.

As for the assaulting part I still think a unit or two coming out can still use the portal, you just have to screen them better or run them into cover, ruins, etc., (which was a tactic that we all should have been doing since 4th edition anyway).

One other method I used frequently was putting assault units in radiers and just let them enter the game from reserves and they had the option to flat-out or sail as far as the portal units were emerging anyway.

For me, being mostly a Coven player, the coven units like Grotesques and Talos/Cronos can still offer value with their shooting and durability with their toughness - something I am convinced Phil had in mind when putting together coven creatures. Even wracks can withstand a turn of shooting when emerging with their toughness and FnP (and I really didn't get to assault with them out of the portal much anyway).

And is it true our fliers can use the portals to enter or exit the board? Something about on-going reserves getting to use the portal from our FAQ?

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 21:04

Quote :
And is it true our fliers can use the portals to enter or exit the board? Something about on-going reserves getting to use the portal from our FAQ?

This is a good question.

1. According to the DE Codex pg. 62 under Webway Portal it states Vehicles can't use the WWP to enter play.
2. DE FAQ states any unit in ongoing reserves can enter play through a WWP.
3. The BRB Pg. 125 under Ongoing Reserves doesn't explain how to get back into reserves, only example it gives is a flyer. Also FMC rules state that it to can go into ongoing reserves (but that doesn't apply to us.)

My conclusion is our flyers can't use the WWP to re-enter from ongoing reserves. The FAQ doesn't amend or errata the ruling on WWP from the codex, it just states if a unit is capable of going into ongoing reserves you can use the WWP to return to the table. Unless they change that our allies can use the WWP (for swooping hawks) or make FW DE FMCs models, I don't see us ever using ongoing reserves for non-vehicles.

Also, I agree that Coven should use WWP. They can take a beaten when coming in and not having to use assault as defensive tactic.



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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 21:54

I think that with the changes to the number of units you can put in reserves and to reserve rolls, one of the major changes that everyone should be considering is the NUMBER of WWPs in a list. At 85 points each (with haem carrier), they aren't cheap at all, but we won't need as many since the only thing we're likely to stuff in them is Talos, Grots, Scourges, RJB, and Hellions (I am under the firm belief that beasts should start ON the board, not in reserves, due to their new movement rules). I think that pretty much every list should have one now, but never more than one...

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 00:55

@ Ruke, I agree that the number of WWPs should be considered. What I would like to add is that the Pure WWP list is a thing of the past. I believe we should take 1 WWP and make units have transports still. Now this gives you options.

For Example:
Warriors in Raider on Table
Warriors in reserves, Raider on Table
Warriors in Raider in Reserves
Warriors on Table, Raider in Reserves (worst option listed)

The warriors should probably be 5-10 man w/ blasters and SC (10man only). Also I think Raider spam will make a comeback and venom spam will become a bench warmer.

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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 06:43

Actually, the more I think about it, the less convinced I am that a single WWP is the way to go.

This is for four reasons:
(1) I will be taking 2 HQs (or more) anyway, so the real cost of the extra WWP is 35 points.
(2) While the fact that we can have night fighting in 58% of our first turns or more, a better chance to go first with the Baron, or any of the other rules changes that make deployment of a WWP safer, I still do not like risking getting the one WWP I have shot out from under me in a game with short table-edge deployment. That's game over. Not worth the risk in 1/3 of all games. Well worth an extra 35 point investment.
(3) One of the biggest assets of having two WWPs in a list is being able to spread the board. Especially now with the new rules (and everything coming in on a 2+ or 3+) I can easily see a backlog stopping you from deploying a unit. In this 6th editiong that is very bad. Its like a major city with two starbucks directly across the street from each other. They do it because one cannot handle the rush, and they were unable to secure the location next door to expand the original store.
(4) I like options and versatility. Deploying WWPs at opposite ends of the board puts very few things out of striking distance. This affects the way your opponent plays and allows you to take advantage of the DEs biggest strength: the ability to dictate where and when the fighting occurs on the board.

@Ruke and Kayto, I am generally in agreement with you concerning what should be brought through a portal.
RJBs, Hellions, Blasterborn, Scourges, Talos/Chronos, Wracks, Grotesques, 'quins, HG wyches (a "new" unit I think we'll be seeing more of), and perhaps one or two other things are definitely possibilities. But I think with this 2+/3+ reserve (Autarch as previously mentioned perhaps), we should be putting nearly half the army into reserves. Getting everything in shorter range, and then popping a good 35-40% of a force mid-board in one turn (two tops) is a fantastic option.

I'm still fine tuning a list (the biggest issue I'm facing is gauging how much AT, and of what kind, we will need in the new meta, and if I can swap out the few DLs I have for DCs to handle the AP2). I'd love to hear some thoughts when I get the thing decent enough to post.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 07:00

I don't see venoms going anywhere as they can pump out even MORE poison now that you can toss warriors in them and move and shoot, but i do think you're right about raiders making a comeback as a major component of the DE forces.

Also, as a note, its nigh unfeasible to take allies with less than 2000 points... You're going to be spending a MINIMUM of 150 points on your ally squad, and it's really easy to spend upwards of 300 - 500 points

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 07:53

I should mention that most of my games are played at the 1850 or 2250 point level, so allies are possible (though I'm not the biggest fan as of yet). We will see as this edition further develop. I'm also considering the DCs on the fighter, and leaving the DLs on what few transports i keep on the ground in a WWP list. Of course, I'm considering a lot of things at this point.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 12:36

I would say even at points <2000 you can still look into the possibility of allies. Bring the 2 minimum troop choice for DE then start bringing Eldar to subsitute our troops slot.

Example

1 Autrach 70 + 2 x 7 Rangers 266 or 2 x 5 Pathfinders 240 = 336 (Rangers) or 310 (Pathfinders)
2 Scoring units w/ Infiltrate, Stealth, Scout, Snipers, and 1+ to Reserve Rolls.

VS

2 x 10 Warriors w/ Blaster, SC in Raider (no upgrades) = 350
2 scoring units, 2 DLs, 2 Blasters, 44 Poison shots if you didn't move and your at 12"

It will depend what you prefer, I personally would lean more towards the Ally route.

Also, this doesn't count if your bringing MSU Troops instead...But why are you bring MSU Troops with WWP is my question.

You can also think about bringing a Seer w/ Stones, Anti-Psyker Rune, Doom, and Fortune or Guide (don't have dex on me for point cost) instead of the Autrach, and bring 1 beefy squad of Rangers/Pathfinders.

So It's possible to bring allies in points <2000, maybe all the way down to 1500, any lower and you might have to start bringing MSU instead and maybe even steer away from WWP.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition and WWP   6th edition and WWP I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 23:38

I think the allied rangers/pathfinders could be a great way to move your portal forward without the vehicle.
The scout rule will let you redeploy within 6". This means you could start behind impassible terrain at the edge of you deployment zone(thank you random terrain placement), then scout forward 6" because it is no longer considered a movement, then move forward 6" in the movement phase and drop the portal. I'm thinking haemy with a hex rifle + 5 pathfinders. Then I get a farseer for psychic defense and buffs.
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