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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 18:56

To be honest it doesn't say you can't assign wounds to other squad members after you killed your challenger. It says you are in b2b only with him but you can assign wounds even to miniatures not in b2b per combat rules. As you said, you have to allucate wound to a model in base to base FIRST, but when that model is dead, you have to assign those wounds to other models even not in base to base.
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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 19:31

@foeofnight wrote:
Okay the wording in this one section I agree can leave some holes to be filled and maybe they will FaQ.

pg 64
"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each-other"

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase"

I agree that an FAQ will definitely be needed to sort this out once and for all.

The reasons you presented in your last post do seem to be the main argument against overkill and are quite convincing however I would argue back that if a character has been slain and removed from the board, how can they still be in base contact with anyone?
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foeofnight
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 20:37

Quote :
how can they still be in base contact with anyone

For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each-other

When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase

There is not mention of removing casualties. Just states that you are in base contact with the challenger for the duration of the challenge. And by defination the duration of the challenge is until the end of the combat phase regardless of whether someone is slain or not.

So then by definition of being in base contact is that the challenger is the closest model for the entire phase.

I agree that if you read on into the outside forces section that it does muddy the waters even more as it states they cannot attack the models in the challenge and says nothing about attacking out. I feel that that is because of the poorly worded strings of text I have provided that GW intended to have decide this matter for us.

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 23:20

I think you can attack out of a challenge, but you simply need to allocate wounds to the challengers first, until one of them dies. Then ALL the unsaved wounds, counts towards the combat resolution. It's important they wrote that part, because it means you have to assign those wounds to other models not in b2b as per normal combat rules.
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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 23:49

When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase

that answers it right there... the answer is no, if you are in a challenge you cannot allocate wounds to anyone other than the challengee

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 23:53

^ +1, it sounds fairly simple to me, they probably didn't explicitly say you couldn't attack models other than the challengee because it never occurred to them that you'd consider it anyway.

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 09:12

The challenge is ongoing, but nothing prevents you to assign wounds.nowhere is written than you can't allocate wound to others than the challengee, you can't allocate wounds to the challengers from the rest of the squad but not vice versa. It is fairly simple, it's stated that you can't give wounds to them but not that them can't give wounds to others when one of the challegers is slain. Combat rules are explicit on this: if you have no one alive in b2b (the challengee when you slay it for example) the wounds you caused have to be assigned to other members in the squad locked in combat even if not in b2b.
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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 11:16

PG 64 BRB wrote:
OUTSIDE FORCES - Whilst the challenge is ongoing, ONLY THE CHALLENGER AND CHALLENGEE CAN STRIKE BLOWS AGAINST ONE ANOTHER.

That's pretty clear, and this is just another example of people trying to bend/break the rules (probably without having played a game or used them in most cases). Nothing can strike INTO the challenge, nothing can strike OUT OF the challenge.

Also, there's this

page 26, "Determine Assault Results," third paragraph:

"Note that wounds that have been negated by saving throws or special rules do not count towards determining who won the combat. Neither do Wounds in excess of a model's Wounds characteristic; only the Wounds actually suffered by enemy models count (including all wounds lost by enemy models that have suffered Instant Death - see page 16)."

page 65, "Assault Result"

"Unsaved Wounds caused in a challenge count towards the assault result, alongside any unsaved Wounds caused by the rest of the characters' units."

Basically, while in a challenge, treat characters as though they were a separate unit that is only in assault with each others, and add the wounds lost by the character and his squad together to determine the assault results.

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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 11:59

@foeofnight wrote:
Quote :
how can they still be in base contact with anyone

For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each-other

When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase

Yes, but it is quite obvious to me that if a model has been removed from the board, then there is no way it can be in base contact with anyone or anything. That was my argument. It probably doesn't mention what happens when one is killed for two reasons. Firstly, the whole thing is rather vague and badly written. Secondly, the writer thought it was rather obvious that if a model has been slain, he/she is no longer in base contact. I believe it states the challenge is ongoing to prevent the squad who just witnessed their champion be slain, turn around and smash up the victor.

@Ruke wrote:
PG 64 BRB wrote:
OUTSIDE FORCES - Whilst the challenge is ongoing, ONLY THE CHALLENGER AND CHALLENGEE CAN STRIKE BLOWS AGAINST ONE ANOTHER.

That's pretty clear, and this is just another example of people trying to bend/break the rules (probably without having played a game or used them in most cases). Nothing can strike INTO the challenge, nothing can strike OUT OF the challenge.

Sorry but that is simply not true. As I addressed further up this page, that sentence means that the only models that can hit the challenger or challengee is their opponent. It does not mean that they cannot strike blows against other models once their opponent has been slain.

@Starstrider wrote:
@foeofnight wrote:
Pg 64 Bottom right corner

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase."

"Outside Forces"
"Only the challenger and the challengee can strike blows against one another."

So with that wording I would say that you would not be able to allocate wounds to the rest of the squads until the next phase as per the first quote I have provided.

Though I can see your argument as the wording after the quotes provided only says the rest of the squad cant attack the models in the challenge. But I think the previous rules sum up for me that the models in the challenge cannot attack outside of that challenge

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree again here. "Only the challenger and the challengee can strike blows against one another" means that that the only model that can hit a participant is the other participant. It does not mean that they cannot hit the other models. If it was phrased as "the challenger and challengee can only strike blows against one another" then fair enough but it is not written as such so once the opponent is dead, it is fair game to allocate wounds to the next nearest models. The position of "only" in the sentence matters a great deal.
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 12:00

No, it's not clear. It says only the challengers can wound eachother, but not that one of them can't wound the rest of the squad.

And tbh this in the italian version i hate is even more clear.

In italian it says "le ferite di altri attaccanti non possono essere distribuite a nessuno dei due personaggi" i.e. "wounds from other attackers can't be assigned to neither of the characters", it goes great length to specify no one except the challengers can hit them, but there isn't anything about the challengers wounding the other models. If they explained in great detail the first part leaving the other out, it means perhaps that they wanted victorious characters to wound normal squad models.

Let's think about a stupid thing: A bloodthirster charges into a guardsmen blob. It doesn't challenge because it won't benefit it at all, but the opponent sargeant challenges the bloodthirster. It can't refuse the challenge, so it attacks the sargeant and easily slay him. Scoring 1 wound instead of 4-5. Now the guardsmen blob have lost the fight, but only by 1, they check for morale and they pass the test because it was only at -1, now the bloodthirster is locked for another round against guardsmen (and in a 5 turn game, is a great lot).

In the other way the bloodthirster would have slained the sargeant and then also another 3-4 guardsmen would have died along. Losing the fight by 4, checking the morale at -4 and possibly flee, lose the initiative check against the greater daemon and being destroyed instantly, like you would expect from a manifestation of a god of war and blood.


To me it seems logical the second interpretation of rules, even because is RAW. Nothing prevents you from assign wounds to the other members of the squad once the your challenger is dead.
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foeofnight
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 19:38

There are many sections in the rules that more or less say that you cannot assign wounds out of the challenge...

-However there are no sections saying that you can.

At this point the argument is going nowhere. We have direct quotes to back up against why you can't and until GW or another comes up with a direct quote saying you can I will continue to play that way.

I also encourage you to play the way you want to until GW or someone else comes up with the explicite wording saying you can't allocate out of combat.
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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 20:11

@foeofnight wrote:
There are many sections in the rules that more or less say that you cannot assign wounds out of the challenge...

Would you care to provide us with these many sections that say wounds cannot be allocated to other models so that we may examine them as a group?

I would ask that you do not simply repeat quotes that have already been countered so that we can press forward rather than continuing to go round in circles. If there are indeed many sections which I have overlooked then this shouldn't be an issue and I look forward to seeing them.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 23:29

I was at the 40k open day today and took the opportunity to ask Jervis Johnson about this one. Simple answer? No, you can't allocate wounds to models not in a challenge, and it's going to be FAQ'd.

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 15 2012, 03:24

I will lol at those who pay more than 80pts for a IC then Very Happy
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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 15 2012, 12:00

Fair enough then, I can't argue with that. Thank you for resolving this Burning Eye, it's much appreciated. Smile

And on that note, I shall now be including a basic Sybarite in every Kabalite Squad. Twisted Evil
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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 15 2012, 12:15

I don't think that's necessary, as the majority of the time they're going to be in a vehicle, and when they're not you still dont want them getting assaulted.

Assault = dead kabalites.

Wyches, bloodbrides, incubi, grots, hellions, mandrakes, and harlies are the only squads that see close combat enough, and who's squad leaders are good enough in close combat to warrant taking them in order to save yourself from challenges.

If you have a special IC that you run with kabs on a regular basis (Like the duke), it might be worth tossing a syb in that group in order to keep him safe from challenges?

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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 15 2012, 12:31

Oh yeah, I know Kabalites die horribly in assault but it is just so tempting to include just for the giggles of having, say, a Bloodthirster pile in and then get held up for a turn by a glory seeking Sybarite. Laughing

Not something to include on a regular basis unless you have points left over though. However, with more gunboats around and explosions being more deadly, the Ld boost could come in handy... Something to think about anyway.

I didn't really use the Duke much in 5th, preferring to stick pure Kabal of the Black Heart with Cult of Strife allies and the odd Haemonculus. I may start to use him more in 6th though, perhaps representing a powerful Dracon? If I do include him, I'll keep your advice in mind.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 15 2012, 23:11

No problem, I've got a few notes I took during the dark eldar seminar with Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin that I'll put in a separate thread, also an interesting comment from Mat Ward actually in the necron seminar i went to.


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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 09:18

I'm curious about it.

Btw i had some interesting results with Wracks and assaults against gk.
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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 10:42

Eye, could you post a link to that thread after you get it up, i too am extremely interested to know what was said

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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 13:25

Yes of course, hopefully I'll be able to write it up tonight.

Here it is. https://www.thedarkcity.net/t3551-feedback-from-dark-eldar-seminar

Interestingly, Phil Kelly described the relationship between DE and CWE as like two brothers who'll kick seven bells out of each other until someone else gets involved, at which point they'll both turn on them and pull no punches. Hence why they can take each other as allies I guess.

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