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BlckRven
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PostSubject: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 17:17

Bassicly we can't get around the fact that we suffer from overwatch and challenges. we take some lucky shots and lose some assault unit. And our characters are never strong enough to kill lords and champions in terminator armor.

the solutions.

1. take some squads of 3 wracks. cheap yet pretty tough. stick a heamy to them and put them in a venom or a portal.
2. take your glass cannons, hellions, beast, harlies, what ever you like. make sure it is a cannon though.
3. charge the unit with the wracks first! according to the rules, you can only overwatch 1 unit. wracks are strong, but not like super killy men strong. yet, three men leave enough room for the main glass cannon the charge up aswell, without getting shot.
4. o my god, your heamy gets challenged (or you challenge him) now what?
5. uhmm, I do not care? he is 50 points well spend to make sure I can fight one turn without being hit by that nasty IC. If the main cannon is powerfull enough the IC has to face what? 15 helions/10 rending beasts/10rending harlies? good luck with that sir.

6. due to High initiative I wiped the ritinue and lost a heamy. Seems like a fair deal specialy if . he essentially gave up his paintoken to the wracks. you might even want to move the hellions/beast/harlies first, than disband the heamy from the wracks and connect to the cannons unit, to make more use of the token. (not sure though if the heamy gets fleet than)

conclusion, spend 80 points (the venom is not useless afterwards!) to make sure you have a nearly flawless anti IC squad? count me in!

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 18:51

The Haemie isn't needed for challenges - just a squad leader... But otherwise yes, fair point: I prefer RJBs on paper though as 'overwatch soakers' - they can get into position better, can fire before the charge and should have a better save (4+ cover due to moving and Skilled Riders), have yet to test it out though: certainly your idea is much cheaper!

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 19:37

Lets take for example of a beastmaster squad w/ Baron (or without, it doesnt matter), probably our premier assault unit atm.

So you charge a 10 man tactical squad w/ flamer, missle, powerfist. So 17 shots from bolters/pistols result in 2-3 6s, and the flamer his for about 2hits. So in total we are looking at 3 wounds. So your beastmaster (or baron) takes his LOSs on all of them, and passes those that pass around to different razorwings so that they soak up fire. Now you hit combat.

So the Fist Sarge challenges. You decline. Now the only penalty is for your for one character (so 1 beastmaster, or baron) to not make attacks. All this means is that he steps back and lets his pets rip the squad to shreds.

Pretty much the same works for hellion blobs. You charge in, allocate hits away from your characters, and then if a challenge is called step back (although if its just a sargie, that means your hellion w/agoniser can mess him up) Remember there is no real downside to the challenge other than not having the sargie hit. Infact I would encourage challenges against marine sargies. The less attacks back on our fragile units, the better our units are off.

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foeofnight
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 19:40

Honestly I am not to worried about overwatch with my hellions.

I have a few ways to mitigate this:

-Stick baron in the front to absorb the 2 or 3 wounds headed your way.
-They unit should have at least FnP prior to charging anything (wrack and haem switch ftw)
-Baron grants stealth within 8inches (PGL) and the unit has stealth to begin with (From Baron). They way I read the rules these stack for a 5++ save total. Charge through ruins or a forest and overwatch is next to nothing.

Of course there are other ways to mitigate as described above with a decoy unit.
Over all I am not to worried about overwatch. Yes it wasnt something that was there before, but with being able to gain to cover against it I think it isnt as big of a deal as most make it.

Now as for challenges that is a different story.
-I have grabbed a champ for my hellions just to accept the challenges. Last thing I need is the baron disappearing on me during my combat. I think having a champ is almost necessary in any squad you feel is going to be a cc unit just so he can accept the challenges and then let your HQ rip apart the squad.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 19:47

@foeofnight wrote:
Now as for challenges that is a different story.
-I have grabbed a champ for my hellions just to accept the challenges. Last thing I need is the baron disappearing on me during my combat. I think having a champ is almost necessary in any squad you feel is going to be a cc unit just so he can accept the challenges and then let your HQ rip apart the squad.

not really... against most units I would rather have the Aggie Helliarch than Baron, ofc that depends on your meta, but my meta is mostly of the 3+ variety Razz

And there is no reason why you wouldnt accept against chump units. If its just a sarge, just aggoniser him to death. If that sarge is wearing 2+ armor (wolf guard, necron lord w/ weave, termie sargie) then just dont accept and have baron not attack. He is still there to take the brunt of the wounds if you want (this isnt fantasy, so he doesnt get knocked to the back)

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foeofnight
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 20:06

Quote :
(this isnt fantasy, so he doesnt get knocked to the back

True he is still there to take wounds which can be good or bad

Quote :
not really... against most units I would rather have the Aggie Helliarch than Baron, ofc that depends on your meta, but my meta is mostly of the 3+ variety

I see your point here, I have began to step away from the agonizer though personally in favor of a venom blade for points savings and also going for more wounds rather than trying to ignore saves.

Quote :
If that sarge is wearing 2+ armor (wolf guard, necron lord w/ weave, termie sargie) then just dont accept and have baron not attack

This is the reason I want the cheap champ there to accept a challenge. I dont want nasty CC monsters like kharn to be eating my unit for breakfast. I would rather have a really dead hellion than 5 dead from one swing. Having CC monsters rip through your unit just because you chose to ignore the challenge doesnt seem right to me.
Of course I havent had to deal with challenges a whole lot yet and I may change my mind over time. I am thinking of also modeling a hellion with a power axe to take out those pesky 2+ saves now. I will have to see how many termies appear in my meta.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 20:24

you have to remember that overkill wounds in a challenge count towards your wounds in determining the assault. So if your helliarch dies, and the other champ did 3 wounds, that puts you down by 3 wounds before any other swings are made. Thats pretty hard to overcome. Also there is no cap on how many overkill wounds they can get. So think if lelith hits and wounds with everything, you would be down 9-10 wounds before anything is even done!!! I would rather have my champ not attack than to be down so much.

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foeofnight
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 20:58

Interesting point... Didnt see that till just now.

But take my example. Would you rather be down 5 wounds from kharn and only lose 1 model and be down 4 extra wounds?

or would you rather lose 5 models and be down 5 wounds and have 5 less models at the end of the combat?

It is really situational and hard to say which is the best route to take. We can sit here and what if all day I suppose, it really comes down to what models you have at the time and what you are facing.

Kharn may be a bad exaple as he is initive one now.
Fighting lelith (or any character with high initiative) I would rather accept with a champ and be down a few wounds from overkill than to let them do all those wounds to the entire squad. You still may lose in the end of the combat but you still have your models and a chance to get away.
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BlckRven
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 21:03

You can always just deny challanges with a heamy... he is not really contributing anyways. But than you could use more units to hammer down a IC, if you desire to do so.

I think it is a plus to be able to except and die or deny the challange and not lose much in the way of effectiveness either way.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 21:05

Haven't got my books with me at the moment (they're upstairs and I'm lazy) but is there any reason why archons with a huskblade and a shadowfield aren't great challenge fighters? I'll do the numbers later but i think the potential to insta-kill even a terminator captain through one unsaved wound with a 2++ would leave us at the top of the pile?

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 21:28

Simple reason? Because he doesn't get to swing against that IC. You challenge? A sargeant accept your challenge. He won't challenge because of the archon.

Now, if you manage to get into b2b with his IC is a whole other story but you need to be careful to not touch any other base or you are basically screwed. But if the opponent is smart enough, he will put his IC in a position you can't touch him alone...

If your opponent is dumb enough to challenge you or accept your challenge, then you have some chances unless his IC has eternal warrior (a bit rare atm). Against a standard marine, you have 6 attacks on the charge, 4 will hit, 1 average wound and then he saves at 2+. Then he strikes back with his power fist, 2 attacks hits, 2 wounds. Chances are that the archon is less likely to survive. Don't even get me started about wounding orcs IC or necrons IC.

GL with that tactic. The archon in this way costs more than the standard marine IC though.
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 01:16

Foeofnight makes a good point, I would rather take a bunch of wounds and lose one model than take a bunch of wounds and lose a bunch of models.

Just like any other facet of assault, you have to be careful about what you choose to challenge. Obviously, if you challenge a unit that has a sarge and a IC in it, you're going to wind up knocking the sarge down while his IC noms on your squad, so when you assault those units, wait for him to declare the challenge, then throw that hammer right back at him. Challenges are the cool new thing now, so you're going to see them often, but before long people will see how they can bite you in the !@# and be much more cautious of them. Strike at units in such a way as to focus fire on their sarges during the shooting phase then assault and challenge that IC, or strike units that have either and IC or a Sarge, but not both. Use ICs to run and challenge sarges in units that have no IC's, and your extra 3 or 4 wounds along with what you're going to cause from the rest of the CC unit is going to win combat for you. And remember that we are one of the only armies around that can field an independant IC in almost every unit we toss on the board. Take advantage of that.

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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 06:53

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
you have to remember that overkill wounds in a challenge count towards your wounds in determining the assault. So if your helliarch dies, and the other champ did 3 wounds, that puts you down by 3 wounds before any other swings are made. Thats pretty hard to overcome. Also there is no cap on how many overkill wounds they can get. So think if lelith hits and wounds with everything, you would be down 9-10 wounds before anything is even done!!! I would rather have my champ not attack than to be down so much.

There is no Overkill rule in WH40k 6E like there is in fantasy.

page 26, "Determine Assault Results," third paragraph:

"Note that wounds that have been negated by saving throws or special rules do not count towards determining who won the combat. Neither do Wounds in excess of a model's Wounds characteristic; only the Wounds actually suffered by enemy models count (including all wounds lost by enemy models that have suffered Instant Death - see page 16)." (emphasis original)

page 65, "Assault Result"

"Unsaved Wounds caused in a challenge count towards the assault result, alongside any unsaved Wounds caused by the rest of the characters' units."

So wounds caused in a challenge are treated exactly like "normal" wounds for assault results. Which means no Overkill wounds. Note that Overkill in fantasy is a specific, named set of rules, and there is nothing to indicate anything like that here.

This means that cheap, 1-wound characters are fantastic for tying down CC-oriented Independent Characters, whose killing power will only count for a single Wound at combat resolution. And Beastmasters are characters that can be taken up to 5 in a squad at only 12 points each.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 15:05

see, I read as all unsaved wounds in a challenge count towards the result. But in conjunction with the determine assault result, I guess you are right.

Hmm... that does make a huge difference... Maybe challenges arent as good as I thought?

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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 16:18

Never challenge. And never go melee with our crap IC with 6th except drazhar.
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 16:57

lol our crap ICs??? So lets see... you like Drazhar at his extremely high cost and armor that is ignored by AP2 weapons, but dont like our relatively cheap and effective Archon w/ Power Axe and Shadowfield??? yah... about that...

Also never accept a challenge??? Well I would challenge if they have a powerfist sarge, which is a common thing in SM armies. Why not have my Agoniser Hekatrix or Helliarch take him out of the battle completely. He strikes last, and you have a very good chance of getting 1 wound through (4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound) and then you dont even have to worry about him for leadership or assault purposes. Oh and dont say "Agonisers cant go through 2+ armor" because the only sargies that can get 2+ armor that arent already in a termie squad are WG, and if they run them, then they are coming out of a drop pod anyway.

If i have a good chance at killing their sargie in combat, then I will challenge. There is no reason not too. Its a win win for us. We either pick their sargie out and kill him so he doesnt do damage and they cant use his leadership, or he doesnt attack, which in most armies the sargie is the only one who can get a special CC weapon.

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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 18:01

^ here here, well said. And if he's got a 2+ IC with that unit, well you're tying up an expensive character to contribute 1 wound to combat resolution, and there's always a chance he might fail that 2+ (once in every six in fact Laughing )

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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 18:05

Actually, the way I see it, challenges do overkill, in a fashion. Let's say Archon with agoniser challenged power fist Space Marine sergeant. Sergeant accepts, eager to instant death mr Archon and also not wanting to be denied his attacks. Archon deals 3 wounds, 1 of which kills brave but foolish Sergeant leaving 2 left over. These wounds would then be transferred to the next closest 2 models as per wound allocation, killing 2 more Marines. This means a plucky Sybarite cannot stop a Bloodthirster rampaging through his unit just as an Imperial Guardsmen sergeant cannot prevent Lelith slaughtering the squad. Wounds do carry over.

One argument I have seen against this are that the challenger only counts as being in base to base with the challengee and remains in base to base until the end of the challenge, which lasts until the end of each fight sub-phase. Therefore, since wounds must be allocated onto models in base to base first and the challenger counts as being in base to base only with the challengee and always with the challengee until one is dead and that fight-sub phase is over, that challengee can effectively soak up all the wounds. However, once the challengee is dead, they are quite clearly not in base to base anymore and so are free to be allocated to the next nearest models But wait! I here you cry, the challenge is still ongoing therefore the challenger can only be attacked by the challengee and vice versa, protecting my unit. True, but if you notice it only talks about the challenger being attacked, not who he can attack. The challenge rules protect the participants from the unit but not the other way around.

Yes, this is rather complicated and GW could do with putting this into the inevitable 6th ed rulebook FAQ to clear it up but I am fairly certain this is how it works. So, once that challengee is dead, your challenger is free to allocate any remaining wounds onto nearby enemy models and if your challenger is killed, the challengee can allocate any remaining wounds onto your closest models.
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 21:05

Quote :
Archon deals 3 wounds, 1 of which kills brave but foolish Sergeant leaving 2 left over. These wounds would then be transferred to the next closest 2 models as per wound allocation, killing 2 more Marines.

except it states that the characters in a challenge cannot interact or be interacted with by the other members of the squads...

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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 21:15

@Ruke wrote:
Quote :
Archon deals 3 wounds, 1 of which kills brave but foolish Sergeant leaving 2 left over. These wounds would then be transferred to the next closest 2 models as per wound allocation, killing 2 more Marines.

except it states that the characters in a challenge cannot interact or be interacted with by the other members of the squads...

Really? All I can find is that the squads cannot interact with the characters, nothing about the characters being unable to interact with the squads. Therefore, once that one and only model in base contact with you has been slain, you are free to allocate any remaining wounds to the nearest enemy models as usual.
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 23:02

Pg 64 Bottom right corner

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase."

"Outside Forces"
"Only the challenger and the challengee can strike blows against one another."

So with that wording I would say that you would not be able to allocate wounds to the rest of the squads until the next phase as per the first quote I have provided.

Though I can see your argument as the wording after the quotes provided only says the rest of the squad cant attack the models in the challenge. But I think the previous rules sum up for me that the models in the challenge cannot attack outside of that challenge
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 23:07

A challenge is indeed mono y mono; or 1v1.

No other things can come out of it except for combat resolution.

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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 00:28

Challenges are lovely for us when it's our squad leaders vs theirs due to high Initiative and things like Agonisers.

Our ICs, on the other hand, are now pathetic against any enemy IC with a 2+ save. Drazhar is actually pretty decent now that his 2+ armour is going to work a lot more, and Murderous Assault makes him excellent in said challenges. Couple that with his Demi-klaives letting him strike at I7, S6 AP2, and you've got terror stalking the battlefield. Unless they have a power fist/thunder hammer and a good Invulnerable/lots of wounds *coughLysandercough*, but when it comes to them we go to the best solution for us anyway: Shoot the hell out of them.

Honestly guys, I don't like the idea of my Archon getting into a challenge at all... but I plan on shooting down anyone who would pose a threat.

You can go on about how efficient an Archon with Shadowfield and Power axe is all you want, it doesn't matter how efficient it is if it gets splatted without doing much, which many Marine ICs are quite capable of. They're getting more wounds on us, and winning as soon as we fail a save. Shoot them down, or if they don't have AP2/can be killed in one assault, Drazhar will be rather nice if you're in a higher-points game.

Our ICs are still great for tearing through Marine squads etc., but in challenges against enemy combat ICs, most of them can't stand up to it. Not that this matters too much due to our firepower, but it's still rather annoying than an ancient, powerful Archon or a deadly Succubus can't take on a simple Space Marine IC in Terminator/Artificer armour. (Look out for Chaplains, they instant-death us now)

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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 12:37

@foeofnight wrote:
Pg 64 Bottom right corner

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase."

"Outside Forces"
"Only the challenger and the challengee can strike blows against one another."

So with that wording I would say that you would not be able to allocate wounds to the rest of the squads until the next phase as per the first quote I have provided.

Though I can see your argument as the wording after the quotes provided only says the rest of the squad cant attack the models in the challenge. But I think the previous rules sum up for me that the models in the challenge cannot attack outside of that challenge

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree again here. "Only the challenger and the challengee can strike blows against one another" means that that the only model that can hit a participant is the other participant. It does not mean that they cannot hit the other models. If it was phrased as "the challenger and challengee can only strike blows against one another" then fair enough but it is not written as such so once the opponent is dead, it is fair game to allocate wounds to the next nearest models. The position of "only" in the sentence matters a great deal.
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PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 17:27

Okay the wording in this one section I agree can leave some holes to be filled and maybe they will FaQ.

-Look at this other set of wording and again its pretty clear to me that there is no overkill like fantasy.

Pg 25

"Wounds are allocated and resolved starting with the closest model"
"A wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact"

pg 64
"For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each-other"

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase"

So if the challenge lasts then entire assualt phase...
The challengers are considered to be only in base contact with eachother for that entire phase....
You have to allocate wounds to a model in base contact first....
You only have one model in base contact for the entire phase....

The only wounds you can allocate are those to your challenger.

Thoughts?
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what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! Empty
PostSubject: Re: what do we say to challenges and overwatch?!   what do we say to challenges and overwatch?! I_icon_minitime

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