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Roc
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 07:28

Truly probably made no difference in that game, but I figure it is something that could make a sizeable difference if the games get larger.

The thing is that the unit and DT count as one unit, but only the DT is discounted for having to start in reserves (as the unit is not required to start embarked or in reserves at all, but instead has the option to join its transport).

Its similar to the Baron joining 'quins. The 'quins have shroud and stealth, and the Baron gives them stealth-- though that doesn't improve their save, they just have the +1 from stealth from two different sources.

In essence, the night scythe doesn't count because its a DT, and it doesn't count because it must start in reserves. But there is no rule that applies to the immortals or the deathmarks squad in that scenario. They are still a unit, with a choice of starting in reserves or not, and count as one squad. Alternatively, if they had a barge instead of a scythe, they would still be one squad.

Like I said, a future-reference thing. I know it's definitely had an impact on the plurality of games in this area.
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Nomic
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Nomic


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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 09:43

4 flyers are still within most armies ability to deal with. Let's say you take the quad gun and 2 of your own flyers. The quad gun has interceptor and is capable of blowing one flyer up the turn it comes to the board. Our flyers are very likely to scora damage on their ones (s8 or 9 against av11). The problem comes when they have 6-12, as nobody has enough anti air to take them out before they blow up all your anti air units. However, if they spend all their points on flyers, the'll have trouble with having enough units on the board to avoid getting wiped on turn 1.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 09:55

I'm getting my rulebook about an hour before the game so it will be a steep learning curve but my opponent is cool with taking our time.

Can someone please tell me if NS and DS have 2 or 3 HP?

Do the passenger's take a S10 hit when their NS is destroyed and then go back in reserve or not?

If you could include page # it would help avoid arguments that i know will come up.

Nomic - Are you saying i should take some AA?

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Allandrel
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 13:29

The night scythe and doom scythe both have 3 hull points (rulebook, page 413).

There has not yet been an official ruling on whether Night Scythe passengers take the S10 hits before going into reserve, so you will need to discuss it with your opponent. The general consensus is that they take the hits just as they would have taken the exploding transport hits under 5E.

The Night Scythe rules only say that if the NS is destroyed, the unit inside is not allowed to disembark, but instead enters reserve (Necron codex, page 51). Hits from an exploding transport occur before the unit is forced to disembark, so would logically take effect before the Night Scythe's rule causes the unit to enter reserve (rulebook, page 80).

The flyer rules do not say "disembarking," but the timing is the same. The passengers take the hits, then are placed exiting the vehicle (rulebook, page 81).

Fluff-wise, one could argue either way - that the Necrons are elsewhere ready to be teleported in and should not be affected by the night scythe's destruction, or that they are in some "phased" state that get disrupted when the night scythe is destroyed before they are re-phased to enter just outside the battlefield.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 14:50

Thanx, hope they FAQ that soon.
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 14:52

RAW they take the hits, as nothing in the special rules for the NS states they don't (they just state the unit doesn't disembark, but instead goes into reserves). RAI I don't think they should take hits, as fluffvise the NS just opens a portal through which the Necrons enter the battlefield. However, if your opponent is cheesy enough to spam 6 of the bloody things, I'd go with the RAW intrepertion.

And yes, as far as I can see, anti air of some type (the quad gun or flyers of our own) is practically mandatory. Even against non-Necron or IG armies, you're still probably goign to see 1 or 2 flyers in most lists.

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 02:34

what about x3 Warwalkers with outflank and scatterlasers combined x3 Voidravens and then add a fortification with Icarus Lascannon or Aegis line with x2 Quad Guns? Deploy them in range of 18" in from the enemy board line (flyers have to move a min. of 18" to gain that 6s to hit bonus) and wait for the flyers to arrive.

Then try to truck up on as many dark lances/blasters as you can and pray for some 6s to hit!

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Lord Clazaryn
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 08:34

I'm pretty sure that you have to deploy your fortifications in your own deployment zone. And the fliers could come on at an epic angle anyway...

Like that Razz Deleted the double post for you - Cavash.
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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 18:32

Hello again, fellows. Sorry for lacking my presence, my grandma have died suddenly weak ago.

1st, short comment "=bs=" wasn't about your wise writing, i just wrote the big whining post, then checked rulebook and realized i was wrong. But i do nott see "Delete" button...

2nd - 4 NS aren't a big trouble, our voidravens and razorwings can destroy it if we've won the roll-off and give the enemy 1st turn.

But when you are facing 4-6 NS AND 3 DS, this IS the trouble.

And 4 NS+3 DS costs slightly above 1200. He can make some resilent squads as anchors for 1st turn. What i've seen - tooled destro lord + pack of wraithes. Or footslogging necrons w/ Lord on foot. (but if Necro going to complete spam, all troops slots would be occupied by 5-men warrior squads + Night Schyte). He still can take ten and place it on the table, leaving NS in reserve.

And i still do not see how we can counter it. Ultimate mobility + singnificant resilence of troop carriers make them unbeatable by most armies.

I'm going to breakdown until August. Our CW cousins will likely see their flyers, CSM will get renewed codex, and may be there would be new FAQ.
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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 16 2012, 19:25

That first alpha strike turn is the kicker. I would probably attempt to get the best possible cover save/forward movement turn 1(Turbo boost mebbe?), then invade their deployment zone. Sounds like the first strafing run is where the real brutality comes from.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 17 2012, 10:23

Got my book and had my first game of 6th on sunday.

Against crons with 4 night scythes.

Played scouring, the one where you play length ways down the table.

Got 1st and smacked him around for 2 turns taking 0 losses thanks to night shields.

His turn 2 all 4 scythes flew on thanks to his leadership trait. The long deployment suited the scythes perfectly. He moved 18" down the table each turn ripping apart my beasts then my troops. My single viodraven fudged his shots and did nothing before being shot down by tesla, i wish i had just bought another ravager.

A painful intro to 6th but im not worried. I made a lot of dumb moves as i didn't know the rules.

Next time im going to rush him! 6 troops choices of wyches and wracks + beasts, blasterborn and 3 ravagers i think. In his deployment zone turn 1.
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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 17 2012, 16:13

As some people mentioned, you need three Voidravens and allied Autarch or ADL+Comm Link - so your flyers can enter on 2+ and destroy enemy's.

but i'd prefer 2 VR and 1 RJW. Missile payload is so sweet... even if we cannot fire all simultaneously.
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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 17 2012, 17:07

Razorwings and Voidravens are nice but I see them more for slaughtering ground troops while being difficult to hit back. So what's our answer to enemy flyers if not them? The humble Ravager!

Before you think I'm mad, note the 6th ed Deldar FAQ where the Aerial Assault rule got reworded to say that the Ravager may fire all its weapons at full BS when moving at cruising speed, whereas it would be forced to Snap Fire one normally. Also note that they didn't mention anything about how this effects Snap Firing at flyers and since FAQ>Codex>Rulebook (see "advanced vs. basic rules" in the rulebook), RAW our Ravager can fire all of its weapons at its full BS regardless of its target, including flyers.

Yes, this probably wasn't the intention and this is very dirty, cheesy, etc. but if your opponent is likewise cheesy enough to spam flyers, abuse the way this rule was written and show them how deliciously evil Dark Eldar can be. Twisted Evil

Sure, the Razorwing and Voidraven are harder to take down than a Ravager to most things and the latter has stronger lances, don't forget that the Ravager is cheaper, has an extra lance and, while not as fast, is more manoeuvrable than flyers so should be able to draw LoS quite easily to their flyers while they struggle to do the same.

I also described this in the thread regarding the FAQ.
https://www.thedarkcity.net/t3356p120-6th-edition-faq-s-now-posted-online
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 17 2012, 20:15

That seems to be based on intreperting the rules in a very specific way, ie. when it says "can fire all weapons at full bs when moving at cruising speed", instead of taking that to mean just that, you're intreperting it as "when moving at cruising speed, can always fire all weapons at full bs regardsless of circumstances". The penalty for bs from moving at cruising speed is a separate thing to penalty for shooting flyers.

Then again, if somebody is playing a list as cheesy as scythespam, he deserves what's coming for him.

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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 17 2012, 20:25

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Nomic.

Note that in the rules for fast vehicles it states that fast vehicles at cruising speed may fire two weapons at its full ballistic skill. The FAQ simply upgrades the ravager to all weapons may fire at its full ballistic skill. Are we then to believe that all fast vehicles can target fliers?

Rather than a case of FAQ>Codex>Rulebook, I think this is a case of Specific>General. When moving at cruising speed, the general rule is that one may fire up to 2 (or all in the case of aerial assault) weapons at full BS. The specific rule is that shots at zooming fliers must be snapshots (which alters the BS to 1). So even RAW, the ravager would still hit on 6s.

That's alright though, there are other options (maybe?).
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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 17 2012, 20:30

Aww, it seemed a bit too good to be true. I thought the way shooting at flyers forces you to snap shoot may override it but I wasn't sure. If someone does spam flyers, I may see if I can get away with it though. Razz

Certainly not something for usual, friendly games however you interpret it though.

Regardless, at least 1 Razorwing and Ravager will remain as staples in my lists.
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Farmer
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 16:10

@Starstrider wrote:
Razorwings and Voidravens are nice but I see them more for slaughtering ground troops while being difficult to hit back. So what's our answer to enemy flyers if not them? The humble Ravager!

Ravagers cant hurt flyers Rolling Eyes
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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 16:27

@Farmer wrote:
@Starstrider wrote:
Razorwings and Voidravens are nice but I see them more for slaughtering ground troops while being difficult to hit back. So what's our answer to enemy flyers if not them? The humble Ravager!

Ravagers cant hurt flyers Rolling Eyes

I would greatly appreciate it if you read the rest of my post before quoting and commenting as such. If you did so, you would realise why I thought that at the time even if I have now realised I was likely wrong in my theory.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 17:09

@Farmer wrote:
@Starstrider wrote:
Razorwings and Voidravens are nice but I see them more for slaughtering ground troops while being difficult to hit back. So what's our answer to enemy flyers if not them? The humble Ravager!

Ravagers cant hurt flyers Rolling Eyes

Rule abuse aside. Ravagers might not be great against flyers, but they are not bad as far as improvised AA platforms go. With three dark lances it's got a 50% chance of hitting.

And like Starstrider said razorwings are hardly air superiority fighters and the void raven isn't spectacular for it's point cost.

Starstrider's point is a good one, we need to look to our non-skyfire units for AA as our flyer are nothing special. My current solution to flyers is 9 heatlances at melta range, the only thing it can't deal with is storm talons and storm ravens (Ceramite Plating, really messes with heatlances).

The best defence against flyers is still outmanoeuvring your opponent.


Last edited by Mushkilla on Thu Jul 19 2012, 17:38; edited 1 time in total
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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 19 2012, 17:36

@Mushkilla wrote:

The best defence against flyers is still outmanoeuvring you opponent.

This. ^ As is one of the main principles with Deldar, what can't hit you, can't hurt you, and if their flyer can't see you, it has no chance of hitting you. Yes, flyers are amazingly fast but, unless they have vector dancer, their manoueverability isn't exactly great. Whereas we are one of the most manoueverable armies in the game and can really take advantage of this.
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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 09:54

Deathray starting point can be placed anywhere within 12" from Scyhte and prolong at any direction. It's Matt Ward.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 10:19

@Hijallo wrote:
It's Matt Ward.
one of these days, im going to do the bridge lyrics part from the US army warriors song to that guy...
- for those of you that would like to know: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkj9Xjqx40E -

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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 11:12

@Hijallo wrote:
Deathray starting point can be placed anywhere within 12" from Scyhte and prolong at any direction. It's Matt Ward.

You may place the marker within 12 but you still need LOS from memory

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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 11:16

Wording says "in weapon's range". Nothing is specified about LoS, and many people argue DR have 360 degrees LoS due to it strange form. What the WAAC's

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PostSubject: Re: Necron flyer spam   Necron flyer spam - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 20 2012, 13:40

Vehicle LoS is always determined from weapons. Case of point, the Chaos Dreadnaught. It has the crazed rule that makes it on a roll of 1 fire at the nearest visible unit, friend or foe. For a long time people thought that while the weapons on walkers have a 180 degree arc of fire, the model itself would have 360 degree line of sight, and would thus turn around and fire at a friendly unit standing behind it. The Chaos FAQ stated that this is incorrect and the Dread can't draw LoS on things outside its weapon range. No reason the same rule shouldn't apply to the Doomscythe, especially when in thta case the rules are actually listed under the weapon's entry. Even if it says "weapon's range" instead of "line of sight", well, the weapon's range obviously can't include things it can't shoot, now can it? That goes against the very definition of "weapon's range"!

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