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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 09:42

So my friends want to gift me something and asked me what i wanted the most and i was thinking about Hellions or Beastmasters to change my playstyle sometime. But i really don't know what to take, i never liked that much both, maybe i liked the beastmasters more because of the cool Clawed Fiend model (but i really dislike the razorwing flock and i heard they maybe change to resin soon), Hellions are cool but i don't understand how to run them yet, i always have a feeling they are a bit underpowered (no rending, stealth not that much useful, no power weapons except helliarc, the baron doesn't seem to me as a strong HQ, maybe cheap but not strong).

But for you, which unit is better and why? Would do use them in a mech list?
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 10:03

Well, if the question is what to buy (or have bought for you) then the simple answer is to get the Hellions box, because you can always use them (without much conversion) as Beastmasters too.

Of course, you'll need to add some Beasts, but if you don't like the official models then convert some alternatives. Lots of people do it for Khymerae (using Fenrisian wolves, Vampire Count Dire Wolves, Chaos Hounds), but you can do it for Razrowing flocks too - I've seen them made out of High Elf shield details, heard about ones based on GW tree foliage, or I think there are some eagles or carrion from Warmaster that might work.

As to why you should include them in your list, I can't say because I've not yet tried either myself. But as I say, getting the Hellions box (plus some beasts) will allow you to try both.
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 10:16

Yes but i should buy 2 boxes of Hellions (and convert one to sathonyx)... that doesn't give much room to buy beasts tbh.
Btw i wanted tactical advices, because instead of buying something not worth to field i'll buy a FW Tantalus.
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 12:52

Beasts and beastmasters FTW in 6th.

- They now have an increased charge range.

- Khymerea's have 5++, Razors have lotta Wounds and Clawey only gets stronger when you hit him, so bring on the snapfire.

- Move through cover is better now

- They can reach all levels in ruïns

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 12:56

@tlronin wrote:
Beasts and beastmasters FTW in 6th.

- They now have an increased charge range.

- Khymerea's have 5++, Razors have lotta Wounds and Clawey only gets stronger when you hit him, so bring on the snapfire.

- Move through cover is better now

- They can reach all levels in ruïns

Unless it's been changed, Khymaerae are 4++

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 12:59

Yup, typo

So even better!

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Urien Rakarth
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 14:11

If you've got friends wanting to buy you Beastmaster units they must be rich!
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 14:14

Ha! Thats another story. I wanted to ask him if his friends need more friends. Razz

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 14:41

Beasts have a better damage output in assault and have more surivivability.

Hellions are weaker in assault, but you also have to remember they have decent shooting as well.

Its a mix bag personally, but I think beasts are the better choice overall

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 15:16

Agreed about the Hellions with Shadows Revenge ofcourse. They have awesome shooting power --> assault 3 poison

But as my advice to the topic starter, I'm an assaulty kinda guy. So basically you'll have to decide if you go for assaulting or for shooting.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 16:08

also you have to remember that you cant move 12" in the movement and get the hammer of wrath attacks with hellions. True, atleast we still get the re-rolls on the assault due to fleet, but those lack of attacks might make a difference. Although you could just shoot before...

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 18:26

@Urien Rakarth wrote:
If you've got friends wanting to buy you Beastmaster units they must be rich!

Not rich... they are willing to pay for part of the unit eventually. But if they finecast the beastmasters, maybe it's better to wait a bit for them.
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 00:07

I find this topic pretty intresting as I´m also considering beast.

what would be a typical and strong beast unit? go full rending?

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 00:27

I think not. Khymaera are useful to assign wounds to them and try to save with 4++ and clawed fiend is the guy to give wounds during the overwatch (too bad you use the majority toughness of 3).
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 06:48

Claw Fiend still seems rather pointless (you never benefit from his high toucgness unless you have nothing but them), but Khymerae are dfinitely useful for taking wounds (and they still hit pretty hard).

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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 13:10

I there, I'm new to the forums but I saw this post and thought it would make a good start.

Personally I'm a fan of the beast masters. In particular 3 Beast masters, 5 Khymerae and 4 RWF, only sets you back 156pts, has 28 wounds and 5 dogs with 4++ to assign S6 to so no insta gibbing of the flocks (depending on position in 6th). Rending helps if you do happen to get into a slapping match with MEQ/TEQ.

In terms of models, if you pick up a hellion box, the fenrisian wolves then you have most of the unit for a reasonable price and only need worry about the birds.

I don't really rate the Clawed Fiend as others have mentioned you pay points for toughness but gain no benefit, the good attacks and S are nice but its a big price tag and you need another beast master for every one.

Hope this is of some use.

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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 22:53

My Beastmasters are wholly kitbashed (though not assembled yet, sadly). The basic idea is that my Beastmasters use soul-tech to bind their victims' spirits to this plane, so everything has a "undead" theme.

The Beastmasters themselves take Hellion Skyboards with thrones from the Dark Elf Black Dragon rider. The riders are based on the Pallid Handmaidens from the Vampire Counts Coven Throne plus heads and arms from Wyches.

The Razorwing Flocks are simply Vampire Counts Ghouls, 2 to a base, that will be slightly modified and painted to have a "skinless" look akin to the khymerea models.

The kymerae are Banshees from the Vampire Counts Mortis Engine. They'll be held aloft by passing through ruined wall sections.

Still not sure what I want to go with for the Clawed Fiend. Possibly one of the Vampire Counts' monstrous infantry.
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RocketRollRebel
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 00:12

Hellions plus the Baron have been a staple of my lists for the past year that I've been playing the army. I highly recommend giving them a try. Without him they seem fairly blah but with the baron you get a large scoring unit that does some great zone control. Hope from cover cover enjoying stealth and a 5th Ed style skilled rider all while putting down a formidable amount of fire from your splinter pods and in a pinch you can club soft targets in cc thanks to a gnarly s4 ccw plus there are some nice combat drug perks that they have a chance to get.

Beasts also look great especially now that they can move 12" and not be slowed by terrain. Huge boost that helps make up for the loss of the wwp as a good delivery system. I run a hybrid list and am also looking to add these in for some discount cc punch.


So in my opinion I say go both! They are each going to fulfill different roles really so it depends on what you need in your army.
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foeofnight
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 17:10

I have always been interested in hellions from the beginning of my dark eldar days. Since the release of 6th it has spiked my curiosity into beast packs as well. So I started doing a comparison and felt this was a good place to share. Just to keep comparisons as close as possible I took squads at the same points value. I know these may not be the go to squad size but it removes variables for comparison purposes.

The math is fairly rough but gives you an idea of what to expect. Both sets of math are against a marine type unit. You will also notice that I did not include casualties into the calculations. Such as if 2 die to over watch how that would effect damage outputs. So realize there of course is some variables left in there.

Hellions x15 -240pts

Pros
Initiative 6
12 inch move 
Combat drugs
3 attacks on charge
Strength 4
Hit and Run
Jump Infantry  

Cons
Toughness 3
Only 5+save
Lack of power weapons

Shooting
30 poisoned shoots
20 hits
10 wounds
3.333 dead marines

Close combat.            +1weaponskill.      +1strength.        Re-roll wounds.      +1attack
45 attacks.                45 attacks          45 attacks        45 attacks             60attacks
23 hits.                        30 hits                  23 hits                 23 hits                     30 hits
11.5 wounds.              15 wounds           15.3 wounds       17.25wounds          15 wounds
3.666 dead.               5 dead                   5.111 dead           5.75 dead                5 dead

Overwatch   10marines        Hammer of Wrath  
        3.333 hits                                 15 hits
      2.222  wounds                        5 wounds
      2.222  Dead                          1.666 dead

3.333 dead prior to overwatch
1.666 dead from HoW
5 dead from CC
about 9 total all with little to no return damage

With the ability to shoot your unit prior to charging has really boosted the hellions. The main thing they lack is survivavbility. Which is why the baron really helps. Getting a pain token as well is key for the new fnp. Which really boost the survivavbility. The other thing that could really hurt is the price of the unit. I like to run 20 at higher point games. Overall with the right tactician the right pain tokens and the right drugs this is a very nasty unit.

I really like the idea of hit and run now. Especially if you have some cover near by. You break from combat even on your turn if you want. If you are about to be charged next turn anyways. Now you get full effect of over watch and defensive grenades again. And at the end of their turn hit and run again for another full round of shooting. I think that the hellions flexibility and shooting ability is what gives them the edge for me over beasts

Beastpack - 240pts
5 beastmaster
5 khymerae
8 razor wing flocks

Pros
Lots of wounds
12 inch move
Not slowed by difficult terrain
4++ save for first few wounds
Rending attacks for most
Fleet
Lots of attacks

Cons
Toughness 3
Lack of a save after 4++ is gone
Most strength 3
Snipers could hurt

Shooting
10 shots
6.666 hits
3.333 wounds
1.111 dead

Close combat - on charge
Beast masters
10 attacks - 5 hits - 1.666 wounds - >1 dead
Khymera
20 attacks - 10 hits - 5 wounds - 1.666 dead
Razozwing Flock
48 attacks - 24 hits - 8 wounds - 4rends - 1.333 dead 

About 7 dead marines on the charge with 1 dead from shooting
With one maybe 2 dead from overwatch

So the thing here is the overall killing power is about the same. Hellions just have some into the shooting phase. The thing for me is that the flocks do have so many wounds which makes it so much more painful when str6 hits them. Now I personally have never used them so I would be glad to hear any other ideas or things I missed in regards to the beasts
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BlckRven
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 19:49

Nice calculations, but 2 things.

1. a 240pts unit? and than an extra 100+ for the baron? seems a bit much. This results in ideal combat results as it leaves no survivers to hit you back. I would like to see a comparison around 150 pts or something.

2. maybe the beasts are about the same against marines. But than again, we have plenty of options to fight MEQ en GEQ. its the more though bastards that get us. And thats where 3 dead terminators per CC phase for the beasts (read razorwings rending - 5+ saves ) come in.

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foeofnight
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 21:36

Yes 240pts on the beasts is a bit high. 240pts on the hellions is where I notice most run the squads. With baron running 15-20 hellions is pretty ideal.

- You realize that most if not all killing power and reason to take the beasts is for the rending of razorwings. You start cutting dow the unit size to the 150pt range and your killing power against TEQs drops significally.

3 beastmasters - 5 Khymera - 4 Razorwings = 156pts

Shooting
6 Shots - 4 Hits - 2 Wounds - .333 dead termies

CC-On Charge
Beastmaster
3 attacks - 1.5hits - .25 dead termies

Khymera
20 attacks - 10 hits - 5 wounds - .833 dead termies

Razorwing
24 attacks - 12 hits - 4 wounds - 2 rends - 1.333 dead from rends + .333 dead from wounds

So 2 maybe 3 dead termies at the 150pt area and that is assuming no storm shields. If they have thoughs then why are you charging at all?

As I said in my above post I did the 240pt limit as that was a good spot for the hellions. I know one of the great things about the beast unit is that it can be much cheaper and still perform very well.

10 hellions - 160pt

Shooting
20 shots - 13.333 hits - 6.667 wounds - 1.111 dead TEQ

Close combat. +1weaponskill. +1strength. Re-roll wounds. +1attack
30 attacks. 30 attacks 30 attacks 30attacks 40attacks
15 hits. 20 hits 15 hits 15 hits 20 hits
7.5 wounds. 10 wounds 10 wounds 11..25wounds 10 wounds
1.25 dead 1.666 dead 1.666 dead 1.875 dead 1.666 dead

Hammer of Wrath :
10 hits - 3.333 wounds - .555 dead termies

So from the hellions you are getting 2 maybe 3 dead from the termies and this doesn't rely on power weapons to do the trick. So if they have the TH/SS combo we dont care as much. Also on turn one moving up or if they are out of charge range they can still shoot and do damage where as the beasts are more limited. Also throw in the baron as either unit would do and they you have defensive grenades which boost survivablity for the hellions. 4++ against overwatch. Hit and Run for extra shooting damage. Ect. Start with a pain token and they have FnP. If you do the 2 pain tokens to start for the hellions with wracks and haem, then the +1 strength from furious charge would make their killing power better than the beasts.
They just have so much more utility and with the combined power of shooting and assulting they have very similar if not slightly better killing power. They only thing you have to watch for is the removing of models from the front.

In the end I think both units are good. Beasts got some good boosts this edition, but I think having the utility of the hellions is what wins this battle for me.

Thoughs?

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BlckRven
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 21:55

You make a valid point.

isn't it difficult to move between the 16 and 21 skyboards through terrain while keeping them all covered during the approach?

(I have zero experience with beasts and helions)

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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 22:12

And that is where play testing comes in for sure.

-In 5th edition moving and getting cover and such was easy. Put 50% in terrain and they all have cover.

-Now in 6th you only 25% to gain a cover save but enemy models can use the new focus fire rules and shoot only the targets that are outside of cover. Something definately to watch for when trying to wield such large units.

-Thankfully the baron allows us to reroll our failed dangerous test so we are very unlikely to fail when going in and out of cover. So when it comes time to hide you can just jump into terrain or behind it. I have even been known to use raiders as a mobile screen before. The survivability of the hellions really depends on them being in cover. Once you have FnP you dont have to worry as much but it is still good to hug cover whenever possible.

Hellions can move really far if you think about it re-deploying at a moments notice. 3d6 Hit and Run Move that you can re-roll the distance for (go baron) then when its your turn, 12 inch move with a 2d6 charge. Getting cover and striking where you want should be no problem
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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 03:26

This popped in my head about an hour ago.

charging a unit with 15 hellions might completely whipe it. even though we retreat 3D6 and hit and run 3D6 we only consolidate 1D6 right? weird but a bit dangerious.

If we hit exactly as the laws of change suggest -murphys law. we leave a 3man unit on the field.
to small to recharg and ,depending on the rest of your unit, to small to shoot. Yet they can still take down units. considerd they have only bolters left. if he has lascannons, plasma or heavy bolters left it is still a priority for some shooting.

Specially the my first argument of these to is a tricky one to tackle. It will come down to finding the ideal squad size. Including barons damage output.

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PostSubject: Re: Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters   Sell me on Hellions or beastmasters I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 11:25

All you ever needed to know about Hellions:

https://www.thedarkcity.net/t1384-hellions-hellions-hellions

It worked for me in 5 th, the heami and wrack PT swap was essential then to really boost them, but in 6th I'm thinking of running a jetbike farseer near them to doom, guide or fortune as required.
I liked the tag team combo of the hellions along with the standard beast unit (3 BM's, 4 flocks and 5 khymerea) and will probably continue that in 6th
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