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 Bladevane Casualties

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Mushkilla
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 02:30

Ok I couldn't spot anything about this anywhere (FAQ/Codex/glancing at my LGS's open copy of the BRB) so...

When a RJB turbo boosts over an enemy unit, if it causes casualties are they removed as shooting? And if so, are they removed from the nearest point where the RJBs 'contacted' them? Or are they merely removed by the opponent at their own discretion (and not us...)

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 02:38

bladevanes are inflicted in the shooting phase, for you cant move 36" in movement phase.
resolved in shooting phase, they are shooting.

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 02:58

@dangerous beans wrote:
And if so, are they removed from the nearest point where the RJBs 'contacted' them? Or are they merely removed by the opponent at their own discretion (and not us...)
I would agree that they are resolved as shooting(turboboosting is now in the shooting phase), but though it makes sense that the nearest model to the point of contact is first to be allocated wounds per the shooting rules, I don't know that this is explicitly stated.

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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 03:00

ESE: shooting phase: clear rules. Wound allocation clear rules. They are resolved as shooting, as far as rules go.

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 03:13

@Enfernux wrote:
ESE: shooting phase: clear rules. Wound allocation clear rules. They are resolved as shooting, as far as rules go.
This doesn't follow the normal rules for shooting, though it happens in the same phase. There is no roll to hit/cover/etc. I would agree that it does make sense in the spirit of the rules to apply wounds to the first model at the point of contact. This is worth a bit of digging.

(EDIT) I'm trying to bring up the argument that your opponent might present, though it seems clear to me that the closest model first contacted should take the first wound.

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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 03:27

you are riding a bike at 900km/h. You have blades on the front, the engine and the rear of the ANTIGRAV bike. who do you hit first: the first one you see, or the guy behind him? Discuss that with your opponent, if you have further doubts. Turbo and flat out is in shooting phase. Turbo is in shooting phase, its effects are resolved in that.

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Baron Tordeck
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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 05:22

Lets keep it civil in here. No need to be snippy with responses to one another.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 07:02

unit FAQ, I would say it is from the final position of the reavers. I know thats weird thinking it from a gaming persective, but you finish moving, and then the wounds are distributed. Its RAW from the book. So yes, you can bladevane a unit, and the first casualty will be the heavy weapons guy in the back.

This same discussion came up today with the void mine, and we came up with the same conclusion.

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 07:06

Quote :
Lets keep it civil in here. No need to be snippy with responses to one another.

There seems to be a lot of that going on lately...

Anywho, if you are say, 3" away from an opponents squad, and you move over them in the movement phase, can you bladevane them?

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 07:35

@Ruke wrote:
Quote :
Lets keep it civil in here. No need to be snippy with responses to one another.

There seems to be a lot of that going on lately...

Anywho, if you are say, 3" away from an opponents squad, and you move over them in the movement phase, can you bladevane them?

It says in the rule book "when moving with turboboost a reaver unit may slash it's foes with its vaneblades."
I think that means only when turboboosting.
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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 07:41

Ah so it does... RJB's are one of those units I just didn't use in 5th, so I'm not completely up on the rules for them. Grots also fall into this category... XD

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 07:46

By RAW it is no problem, because you may turboboost, without moving before, so you don't move in the movement phase and turboboost over the unit in the shooting phase and the rulebook says, that if it's not clear, were the wounds should be allocated, you should just randomly determine the model.

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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 07:57

I was thinking you just had to move over the unit, not turboboost, so if you were close enough you could move and bladvane, then turn around and shoot... ah well, guess that would be broken eh?

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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 08:02

Bladevanes need to boost over the unit. Chain snares can just move over.

It's not a big problem, since we can now turboboost additional 36" after our normal movement, so use the initial movement of 12" to line them up perfectly and then zoom over the target and inflict the pain.

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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 08:16

@Tiri Rana wrote:
Bladevanes need to boost over the unit. Chain snares can just move over.

It's not a big problem, since we can now turboboost additional 36" after our normal movement, so use the initial movement of 12" to line them up perfectly and then zoom over the target and inflict the pain.

This sums it up great. The best thing about the new movement is that you get that 12 inch move to line up your shot, like pool Very Happy , but instead of a ball landing in a hole you get random limbs flying off said "ball." Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 08:22

can you turboboost off the table into ongoing reserves?

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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 08:28

nope

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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 14:18

@Tiri Rana wrote:
By RAW it is no problem, because you may turboboost, without moving before, so you don't move in the movement phase and turboboost over the unit in the shooting phase and the rulebook says, that if it's not clear, were the wounds should be allocated, you should just randomly determine the model.


Hey Tiri can I have that rulebook page? because if that is true, it will make alot of discussions go easier with wound allocation Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 15:17

It's page 15. On the left, in the middle of the page under 'random allocation'.

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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 16:33

@Tiri Rana wrote:
It's page 15. On the left, in the middle of the page under 'random allocation'.
WINNER Twisted Evil
Thank you for providing an actual rule and page number!

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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 12:46

As using Bladevanes is not a shooting attack, am I correct if I presume that a unit of Reavers does not necessarily has to see the actual target they are turbo boosting over? Since the Codex says nothing about the trajectory of the flight itself, only that pick a unit that lies under the line between the starting and the ending point of the move. So it is just fine to attack a unit behibd a LoS blocking piece of terrain this way?

Neither does the Codex says that Reavers have to be actually able to hit the unit. Think a unit of plastic dudemenz hugging the far side of a wall that totally covers them - current interpretation says that if you fly over them and land on the other side legally, you can hit them with Bladevanes, even though in reality Reavers wouldn't fly through walls. I think this is correct as well.

Talking about flying through walls, if I'm correct, it is just possible to have a multilevel ruin, have an enemy unit in the middle floor, and turbo boost over the ruin AND hitting the unit INSIDE. As Reavers completely ignore terrain for movement purposes, they can just choose to fly over the middle floor level AND as BRB states units can move through ruin walls. Really epic mental image to hear screaming jets and see exploding walls, after which maniac pointy-eared guys fly into the building recklessly and slash the poor dudez inside then blast the other wall and fly away. Truly the Dark Eldar way of warfare Smile

Another, seemingly stupid question, but since it is not specified by BRB I have to ask: do jetbikes actually count as part of the body of the model for LoS purposes? Since they use a small flying base, but they are really huge. Considering bikes use bigger bike bases, I interpret jetbikes as bikes + skimmers whereas distance is measured from the "hull" of the jetbike just as if it were a little skimmer and the base is completely ignored for all purposes. Am I right?

Thanks for the answers Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 12:51

Fun fact: Reavers can have 3+ cover save in 6th as well after Turbo boosting Smile
Jink defaults to 5+, but using flat out or turbo-boost results in a 4+ jink save.
BUT, as Reavers are Skilled Riders, they get a +1 to they Jink cover saves!

This means, Reavers that have moved at all have a 4+ cover in open ground and have a 3+ cover save after moving flat-out!

And they ignore difficult terrain. And they automatically pass dangerous terrain tests. And they cannot be instakilled by S6 and S7 anymore. And they have +1A on the charge thanks to Hammer of Wrath.

I think they really became much better in 6th ed. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 13:25

Using random allocation to remove blade-vane casualties is insane as a player who runs 27 of reavers I am probably one of the few players to experience the madness that is random allocation.

On the other hand to answer the OPs question since the release of the chaos daemons white dwarf update there is now a precedence for how bladevane wounds should be resolved.

Quote :
Slash attacks: If a unit of screamers moves over one or more unengaged enemy units with its turboboost movement, choose one of those units - it suffers D3 Strength 4 hits with AP- per screamer that moved over it. Use the final position of the screamers for wound allocation; vehicles are always hit on their side armour.

This makes things a lot easier, I expect blade vanes to be FAQed similarly.

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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 14:10

Personally I'd have ruled that the attacks come from the initial position rather than the final position but at least it's been decided now (more or less).

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PostSubject: Re: Bladevane Casualties   Bladevane Casualties I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 31 2012, 14:17

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Personally I'd have ruled that the attacks come from the initial position rather than the final position but at least it's been decided now (more or less).

Same. However this is great tactically. Not only does it mean models are not safe at the back. But also that the casualties being removed from the back will make it harder for the target unit to charge/rapid fire the reavers after they do their bladevane attack.

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