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thelordhellion
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 23:10

Hmmmmm,if this is the case that is certainly some good news for the Slicus sky serpent army! Any chance of some page references so I can check this out for myself please (and quote to opponents if needed)?

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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 23:32

Actually, Sliscus armies would get the brunt of this, because everything to be kept in reserve would count as two units by my counting.

But drop pod lists would be limited as well to 1/2 of their units starting in reserve (not counting the pods themselves, but counting the units deployed within).

Unless someone can provide a citation for a rule that contradicts that interpretation (as I would greatly appreciate in fact).

Take for comparison mycetic spores, which are listed as an 'upgrade' and must be used if purchased (therefore the bug units within spores would not count towards the 1/2 units in the list calculation, because there it is required the unit starts inside it, whereas with drop pods and sliscus it is not).
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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 00:29

isn't that the way that DPs are listed for marines, except the ones with missiles that can be taken separately?

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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 01:21

Mycetic spores were FAQed requiring them to be taken with something in them. I asked a friend who has both books and he believed there to be a difference.

I'd have to take another look at the Marine codex to be certain about that-- does someone have a cite for it?

Edit: Just checked the codex. Nothing in there, it's treated like a normal DT, so you could deploy inside or outside of it. Unless there is something in the FAQ, or on pages other than 69 and 135 of C:SM?

Edit 2: Compare FAQs between mycetic spores and drop pods. Drop pods can be used empty, mycetic spores cannot. I believe that denotes a major difference.
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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 05:33

So a full Drop Pod assault is no longer legal, and for every unit in a drop pod you need one unit on the ground. Worth knowing.
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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 07:11

@Allandrel wrote:
So a full Drop Pod assault is no longer legal, and for every unit in a drop pod you need one unit on the ground. Worth knowing.
Sorry for going offtopic a bit. But let's look at page 124 of the rulebook, on Reserves, these are the relevant passages:
- "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half their units (rounding up) [...]"
- "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so."
- "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."
- "Independant Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of the whether they have joined another unit or not."

Consider the following

A unit of Kabalite Warriors in a Raider with Screaming Jets you want to deepstrike:
These count as one unit towards the number of units you may reserve, as the Warriors are in their dedicated transport.

A unit of Kabalite Warriors with Duke Sliscus in a Raider you want to deepstrike:
These count as two units towards the number of units you may reserve, as the Warriors are in their dedicated transport and Duke Sliscus is a separate IC.

A unit of Kabalite Warriors in a Tantalus you want to deepstrike:
These count as two units towards the number of units you may reserve, as the Warriors are in a non-dedicated transport.

A unit of Space Marines in a Droppod you must deepstrike:
These do not count at all towards the number of units you may reserve, as the Droppod must deepstrike and the Space Marines are in their dedicated transport. A full Droppod army like this works, but read on.

A unit of Space Marines with a Librarian in a Droppod you must deepstrike:
This counts as one unit towards the number of units you may reserve, as the Droppod must deepstrike and the Space Marines are in their dedicated transport, but the Librarian counts separate, as it's an IC. This means that if you field a full Droppod army with two ICs, one IC must be deployed on the board.

A unit of Necron Warriors with two Crypteks and two Overlords in a Night Scythe:
This counts as two units towards the number of units you may reserve, as the Crypteks become fully part of the unit in their dedicated transport flyer that must move in from reserve. The two Overlords are counted separate.

An army of GK with Draigo, a Librarian, two units of Paladins in Stormravens and a Dreadknight:
At a minimumm, this army must put two units on the table, because it has five units that count towards reserve (the two units of Paladins, Draigo, the Librarian and the Dreadknight). If these two deployed units die in the first turn of the game, the GK player loses immediately.
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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 07:30

@Mandor wrote:
@Allandrel wrote:
So a full Drop Pod assault is no longer legal, and for every unit in a drop pod you need one unit on the ground. Worth knowing.
Sorry for going offtopic a bit. But let's look at page 124 of the rulebook, on Reserves, these are the relevant passages:
- "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half their units (rounding up) [...]"
- "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so."
- "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."
- "Independant Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of the whether they have joined another unit or not."

Ah, that makes sense.

Quote :
A unit of Space Marines with a Librarian in a Droppod you must deepstrike:
This counts as one unit towards the number of units you may reserve, as the Droppod must deepstrike and the Space Marines are in their dedicated transport, but the Librarian counts separate, as it's an IC. This means that if you field a full Droppod army with two ICs, one IC must be deployed on the board.

To be fluffy, I would take two squads of Scouts or Scout Bikers to deploy on the table and eqiual out the ICs.

An army of GK with Draigo, a Librarian, two units of Paladins in Stormravens and a Dreadknight:
At a minimumm, this army must put two units on the table, because it has five units that count towards reserve (the two units of Paladins, Draigo, the Librarian and the Dreadknight). If these two deployed units die in the first turn of the game, the GK player loses immediately.[/quote]

The big problem with going heavy reserves in an army that does not have a rule akin to Drop Pod Assault or Deathwing Assault.
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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 07:43

@Allandrel wrote:
Quote :
A unit of Space Marines with a Librarian in a Droppod you must deepstrike:
This counts as one unit towards the number of units you may reserve, as the Droppod must deepstrike and the Space Marines are in their dedicated transport, but the Librarian counts separate, as it's an IC. This means that if you field a full Droppod army with two ICs, one IC must be deployed on the board.

To be fluffy, I would take two squads of Scouts or Scout Bikers to deploy on the table and eqiual out the ICs.
Yes, that would make sense. It just occurred to me you could also deploy one of your Droppod units separate from the Droppod, allowing you to deploy up to three ICs in Droppods.

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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 21:01

@Mandor wrote:
@Allandrel wrote:
So a full Drop Pod assault is no longer legal, and for every unit in a drop pod you need one unit on the ground. Worth knowing.
Sorry for going offtopic a bit. But let's look at page 124 of the rulebook, on Reserves, these are the relevant passages:
- "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half their units (rounding up) [...]"
- "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so."
- "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."
- "Independant Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of the whether they have joined another unit or not."

Consider the following

A unit of Kabalite Warriors in a Raider with Screaming Jets you want to deepstrike:
These count as one unit towards the number of units you may reserve, as the Warriors are in their dedicated transport.

A unit of Space Marines in a Droppod you must deepstrike:
These do not count at all towards the number of units you may reserve, as the Droppod must deepstrike and the Space Marines are in their dedicated transport. A full Droppod army like this works, but read on.

An army of GK with Draigo, a Librarian, two units of Paladins in Stormravens and a Dreadknight:
At a minimumm, this army must put two units on the table, because it has five units that count towards reserve (the two units of Paladins, Draigo, the Librarian and the Dreadknight). If these two deployed units die in the first turn of the game, the GK player loses immediately.

That's wonderful Mandor, thank you for pointing that out. That is quite important for a duke army, and I think you're definitely correct on the GK list breakdown. However, given the argument that my LGS based its reasoning on, I am not 100% sure it is the correct ruling for the drop pods RAW.

Once again, I have to state that I think you should be right, and it has been the position I have been advocating (and I brought in the argument you pointed out earlier today). However, it was not enough to sway the opinions of the vast majority of the members, and the guys running the shop.

The contention is this: A unit and a dedicated transport count as a single unit for the purposes of "Preparing Reserves". But the difficulty comes with the line that states "any unit that must be placed in reserve does not count for this purpose" (paraphrase). A space marine unit and a drop pod will continue to count as one unit for the purposes of preparing reserves (it is a unit and a DT, and therefore is one unit, as stated above), and the Drop Pod does not count at all because it must be placed in reserve. However, because the space marine unit is not required to be placed in the drop pod, and therefore not required to start the game in reserve, it therefore counts as one unit. Essentially, the Drop Pod does not count for two reasons (being a DT and being required to start in reserves), but the unit has not been discounted by any rule. (Like Sathonyx joining a squad of 'quins. They have stealth from two sources, but it does not stack.)

Contrast this with mycetic spores. Mycetic spores, just like drop pods, are DTs that must start in reserve. The difference is that a unit that purchases the mycetic spore must be placed in the spore to start the game. A requirement not placed on the unit of marines.

While your argument is the closest I've been able to come to a rule-based argument against the aforementioned calculation, I still have yet to find a rule-based argument that actually debunks that calculation.



A note for the mods/whoever: I had tried to import this discussion to start a new thread and not continue to derail the discussion about Archon set-ups but I suppose I'm not as familiar with BB code as I had thought. Is there a way to do this?

And regarding the OT: I've run my Archon for 3 editions with nothing but an agoniser and shadowfield, though I am heavily considering dropping the ag for a PW (maybe axe?) and combat drugs.
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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 00:44

Don't be fooled by the Djinn blade. Unless you roll +1 strength on your combat drugs, the Agoniser is better.

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Lord Clazaryn
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 02:01

Actually, I did the stats and if your archon has a Djinn blade plus combat drugs and starts with wyches with a pain token, on average he produces something like 2.26 unsaved wounds. The agoniser however only produces 2 wounds. This is against T4 and <WS7. The only disadvantage is that Djinn blade Combat drugs costs 30 points and the agoniser only costs 20 however Djinn blade does let you take a blaster with the extra two weapons attack and is also better against GEQ than the agoniser. Up to you though, the Archon with power axe, djinn blade, blaster, combat drugs and shadowfield cost 150 whereas standard agoniser only costs 110 and when you add the axe, 125...

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thelordhellion
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 05:29

seems like everyone is going for the poweraxe archon.......use the dark elf halberds for them.

I really don't know why everyone loves the axe so much, it robs us of our fast initiative

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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 11:10

@thelordhellion wrote:
seems like everyone is going for the poweraxe archon.......use the dark elf halberds for them.

I really don't know why everyone loves the axe so much, it robs us of our fast initiative

Yes it does, but it is an answer to TEQ armour in challenges and just general combat.

I'll be trying a power axe archon with some harlie's in the next couple of games I play, if this doesn't work then I guess she will re-join the incubi maybe without her axe (shrugs)
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 11:38

edit - never mind

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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 14:36

Since you can now have two different special weapons, you cna carry a power axe for hitting high armour enemies and another weapon for lower armour (power axe+djin blade/agonizer would be nice but expensive, power axe+venom blade pretty good since the venon blade onlya dds extra 5 points).

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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 15:33

I think the top HQs this edition are Baron Sathonyx and Archon with power axe.

I would use Vect but he will just get laughed at by anything with a 2+ save.
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 15:53

@Farmer wrote:
I think the top HQs this edition are Baron Sathonyx and Archon with power axe.

I would use Vect but he will just get laughed at by anything with a 2+ save.
I took Vect and a squad of Bloodbrides with gauntlets against Mephison and a squad of Terminators. Locked in combat for two rounds with Vect and six brides emerging victorious.
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 17:59

@Lord Clazaryn wrote:
Actually, I did the stats and if your archon has a Djinn blade plus combat drugs and starts with wyches with a pain token, on average he produces something like 2.26 unsaved wounds. The agoniser however only produces 2 wounds. This is against T4 and <WS7. The only disadvantage is that Djinn blade Combat drugs costs 30 points and the agoniser only costs 20 however Djinn blade does let you take a blaster with the extra two weapons attack and is also better against GEQ than the agoniser. Up to you though, the Archon with power axe, djinn blade, blaster, combat drugs and shadowfield cost 150 whereas standard agoniser only costs 110 and when you add the axe, 125...

That's only if you assume that you'll roll +1 Strength or Pain Token. If you roll anything else the Agoniser is better. Also we should assume that we're spending the same points, so if you're having drugs with the Djinn Blade, assume you will with the Agoniser too. There's only a 1/3 chance that you'll roll drugs for the better, and even then the Pain Token one only helps on the charge and no further.

With the Agoniser, you're paying for reliability, which is well worth it.

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Lord Clazaryn
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 04:18

Well actually, +1 attack brings it on par with the agoniser the +1 strength, pain token and re roll to wound all make it better, only the first two are useless. I'll agree that the agoniser is better in almost every way but if you want a blaster on your archon, I would take the risk in rolling a 3+.

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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 06:51

I must say. I have been using the same Archon model for almost 15 years now. I am rather attached to him and cannot bring myself to mutilate him in order to give him a power axe, and I doubt I can convince any real tournament players that that giant, rather pointy, sega glove is an axe.

This does leave a certain amount of frustration with the build. Perhaps the venom blade will be the way to go... or just keep him with the agoniser in the squad of grotesques (I like an Archon w/Grotes and a 'Monc w/an archons retinue to play T games), and just avoid those 2+ saves.

Makes you think a few hexrifles could come in handy. It won't work often, but when it does, Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 07:07

When it does, they will roll their 2+ look out sir save and delegate the wound to a 1 wound model...

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thelordhellion
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 07:12

hex rifle on the termi sarge like our boss Sky serpent did

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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 07:57

@Ruke wrote:
When it does, they will roll their 2+ look out sir save and delegate the wound to a 1 wound model...
like i said. Rarely. Maybe very rarely. Still would like to see a precision shot and successful wound on a 2+ sergeant or IC. Though LOS does bring up a good point. If there is a 2+ IC out there, and you go after him with the axe, whats to stop that LOS? It really only is useful in challenges, and most opponents should be smart enougb to avoid an Archon geared for that directly. Of course, don't equip for a challenge at your own risk I suppose...
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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 09:48

Just thought I would point it out as I had that experience yesterday... XD

Like I said somewhere else (maybe this thread) if you're going to challenge, challenge a squad with EITHER a sarge OR a IC, but not both...

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PostSubject: Re: Three Archon builds   Three Archon builds - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Aug 11 2012, 22:09

What about...

Instead of the agoniser, I'll try power spear and drugs. It's five more points, but has a one in six chance to give me str 5 in the assault. Four of the six drug results are beneficial, instead of only three if I use agoniser.

Forget about the axe, terminators will be shot with blasters and disintegrator cannons or with copious amounts of splinter fire. Or ignored if all else failes. Or perhaps liquified, in desperate occations.

With the Archon in a unit of Incubi with Klaivex, this will give me three initiative steps before a "normal" (MEQ) opponent gets to strike back. If I place my models cleverly I could likely take out both fists and special weapons early on in the fight, since the closest models are removed at each initiative step and the Archon and Klaivex should kill two enemies each.

Thoughts?
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