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 Raiders Transporting Warriors

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Phototoxin
Braden Campbell
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Enfernux
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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 09:07

I have been playing one game yesterday against grey knights, and there is still one big question that we are not completely sure of considering the new rules book :

When a raider/venom moves up to 12" max, how do the kabalite warriors inside it shoot ?
Is it snap shot or normal ones with full BS ?
To be "sure", we've been considering that I had to move up to 6" to be able to fire with my full BS.
If someone can answer clearly this question, what are the pages of the rulebook where it is written please ?


And another question : is it worth staying inside the raider for a 10 kabalite warriors troop if there is a possibility to get shot by an ennemy unit the turn after, I mean if I can't get to CC with the units that can see my raider or if I can't kill them ? because 4S on all passengers is like 50% death amongst the crew :S
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Phototoxin
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 10:01

All I can say is that DE are now properly fast - 12 move and then 18inch flat out giving a 4+ cover save is insane. Even in the short edge deployment mission you can make contact on turn 2
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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 10:03

If I do that against those grey knights, it means that thy're gonna be free shooting before I disembark, and they have S5 bolters => all vehicles dead unless there is a mountain or something to hide behind =/.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 10:10

@Fruz: check open topped transport and passanger shooting.

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 10:16

There is nothing said about open topped vehicles about passengers shooting from it except the things about access and shooting points, I've read that part many times, that's the "passenger shooting" part that I didn't find atm.
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Ceddyn
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 10:26

@Enfernux wrote:
in 5th, it was easier to bail out from OTT so it only inflicted s3 hits on them, and i hope they kept this rule Smile if not, then ouch :S

Ouch it is.
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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 10:42

@Phototoxin wrote:
All I can say is that DE are now properly fast - 12 move and then 18inch flat out giving a 4+ cover save is insane. Even in the short edge deployment mission you can make contact on turn 2
So this is a net gain of 6" on the 24" we had in 5th, a 25% increase in speed. It comes at the slight cost of hardly being able to ram though (at max we are STR4+D3 for ramming now). Yet all other non-fast vehicles in the game gain 6" on 12" total movement, a 50% increase speed. Plus, we now have zooming flyers and flying transports...

I would hardly call DE "properly fast" in 6th compared to the competition. Of course, this decline in speed has been the trend since 3rd.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 11:10

increase in speed? Eldar have fast skimmers to, they are just not OT, so they cant shoot out of it, and cant assault from it. Our big bonuses were the aerial assault, supersonic, having a large threat range for assaults from vehicles.
Jetbikes? Eldar have them to, with better saves to add. Saim Hann is a very goog comparison list to us: vypers, gjb, jetseer councils, fast skimmer tanks. And DE are supposed to be the fastest. Guess what, eldar have that covered since 4th ed.

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 23:24

So, as I didn't get any answer at all from my questions :

Quote :
When a raider/venom moves up to 12" max, how do the kabalite warriors inside it shoot ?
Is it snap shot or normal ones with full BS ?
To be "sure", we've been considering that I had to move up to 6" to be able to fire with my full BS.
If someone can answer clearly this question, what are the pages of the rulebook where it is written please ?
In which page do I find "passenger shooting' rules as it has been said here, cause I've not been reading the whole book atm, but I looked for that and didn't find it.

And are you guys more jumping out from skimmers to shoot in the 6th version than staying inside them ?
I mean, almost any unit can break down our skimmers ( well there were only grey knight @ S5 bolters there, but he had almost no AI but 3 psycanons in additions to the bolters ). I would personnally now only let them inside if I'm sure that I'm not gonna be shot back by the units I'm focusing, but I obv need more games to have an accurate/relevant point of view.
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theblackjackal
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 00:02

@Enfernux wrote:
increase in speed? Eldar have fast skimmers to, they are just not OT, so they cant shoot out of it, and cant assault from it. Our big bonuses were the aerial assault, supersonic, having a large threat range for assaults from vehicles.
Jetbikes? Eldar have them to, with better saves to add. Saim Hann is a very goog comparison list to us: vypers, gjb, jetseer councils, fast skimmer tanks. And DE are supposed to be the fastest. Guess what, eldar have that covered since 4th ed.
A couple bones to pick here: Eldar tanks have always been as fast as our Raiders, but our speed upgrade (enhanced Aethersails) is about as good as theirs (Star Engines), although ours is much cheaper (in fact, our vehicles are much cheaper in general, making Raider spam more viable than mechanized Eldar in that we can bring more units to the table).

While Eldar Jetbikes may be just as fast as Reavers now (which, I will admit, does make me sadfaced), and they do have superior armor, they still can't take advantage of their speed as well as Reavers can (due to Bladevanes and other fun toys), they don't get access to Feel No Pain, and Reavers have a better statline to boot (at least compared to Guardian Jetbikers; Reavers are far cheaper than a Biker Seer Council is, and arguably more effective). However, Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar have different roles for their jetbike units; Guardian Jetbikes make last-turn objective grabs, Seer Councils dart around buffing units and whacking vehicles with Singing Spears, Shining Spears are (supposed to be) a fast, elite assault unit, while Reavers are primarily for distracting the enemy, harrassment and occasionally nailing a troublesome part of the enemy's firebase.

The problem with our Craftworld kin is that they have not aged well since 4th edition. With 6th, they've gotten a few buffs due to rules changes, but ultimately theirs is an ancient codex for an ancient metagame; most of their units are overpriced and/or ineffective for what they do (or what they're supposed to do). They still have a few good builds, but ultimately, they need an update almost as badly as Chaos Marines do.

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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 00:56

@dangerous beans wrote:
So erm, this'll likely be a bleeding obvious questions - but speaking more tactically rather than determining rules (which is of course also useful), how do you guys use/manouvre raiders+warrior transporters? Is it really worth closing to within 12" rapid fire range and thus also enemy assault is a likely probability! Or to instead hang back and let the longer ranges do the killing? My guess is turn 1: if nighfighting is in effect then hang back at 24" and gain the Stealth bonus. If no nightfighting then close up, firing as you go, to within 12" whilst protecting/distracting/luring the opponets by using a nearby assault unit... If they run towards your gunboat then that unit gets into his lines, but if he deals with the unit then the gunboat is not assaulted (but likely shot down anyway with massed anti tank fire!)

I have never used gunboats before so please excuse my noobish comments...! Wink

I ran gunboats all throughout 5th and will continue to do so for 6th. Best to keep a distance. This works especially well with night-shields (melta weapons have to get extremely close to be effective) and torment grenade launchers (I think it's hilarious when a giant mob of ork boys loses out on the ability to charge only to be cut down by rapid fire, armor ignoring, poison shots the next turn). You never want armies close enough to assault (though with Overwatch, that may change). Keep sticking and moving (again, going over cover is hilarious to foot-slogging assault armies trying to get in contact with your boat).

Never use gunboats alone, though. You need some solid back-up in the form of Blasterborn Venoms, Reavers, Scourges (in 6th), and/or Ravagers. Gunboats are pretty solid by themselves, but warriors don't have enough special weapons to be the only thing you need. Depends on your Meta, though. My local community runs everything in transports. If you don't have the ability to crack transports, you're spent. Particularly with my friend's IG Chimera spam with melta vets...I hate those guys.
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 01:22

Oops. Almost forgot a crucial piece of Gunboat advice: Know what you don't want shooting at you and make sure you know how to neutralize it. If you identify a unit that you don't want messing up your well-laid plans for opponent destruction be sure that you can kill it first or, if there are higher priority targets, deny line of sight.

I'll use the example of the IG list I mentioned earlier, which runs Chimeras (a ton) backed up by Hydras (ignore skimmer cover in 5th) and Vendettas (the only thing mobile). Hydras are a pain because of the aforementioned ignoring of Skimmer cover. However, they are just a vehicle, and a slow one at that. So, I would use superior mobility to deny line of sight to the hydra while keeping priority targets in my sightline (aided by the fact that almost every IG player I've seen puts their longest range stuff at the corners of the board). I would pop their transports (so I can get at the juicy bits) and skimmers (I control these skies) all while the Hydras sit in their corner and pout.

Another piece of advice (that I just thought of from the previous example) is target prioritization. Gunboats do best with busted transports and anything that is as mobile blown up. If dealing with a vehicle-heavy list, I usually go front to back. Not only is it a range thing, but any wreck prevents any non-skimmer from going through the same spot. I once "choked out" an IG player by putting enough squishy targets in the middle of my deployment zone and things he thought were scary to the outside. My opponent deployed his units by putting a cube of transports in the middle of his deployment zone (between two ruins, which he thought would save him from the outside ravagers). A Malys redeploy plus 36" Reaver movement (both great for feinting strategies, which I use all the time) left my squishies out of harm's way and his tanks in prime range for destruction. Wrecked the first set of vehicles and picked the rest off from a distance (back transports could only go around the ruins) until he seceded the game after turn 3.
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 02:00

@Fruz wrote:
When a raider/venom moves up to 12" max, how do the kabalite warriors inside it shoot ?
Is it snap shot or normal ones with full BS ?
To be "sure", we've been considering that I had to move up to 6" to be able to fire with my full BS.
If someone can answer clearly this question, what are the pages of the rulebook where it is written please ?
In which page do I find "passenger shooting' rules as it has been said here, cause I've not been reading the whole book atm, but I looked for that and didn't find it.

It's on page 78, under Transports - Firepoints.

@Fruz wrote:
And are you guys more jumping out from skimmers to shoot in the 6th version than staying inside them ?
I mean, almost any unit can break down our skimmers ( well there were only grey knight @ S5 bolters there, but he had almost no AI but 3 psycanons in additions to the bolters ). I would personnally now only let them inside if I'm sure that I'm not gonna be shot back by the units I'm focusing, but I obv need more games to have an accurate/relevant point of view.

I think no one jumps out anymore, at least I don't even consider it very often. The problem is that if we move over 6" we can no longer disembark and if we moved less, we can shoot with our full BS. And even if the vehicle explodes and we take S4 AP- hits, I often think it's better than to be shot at by Bolters or similar weapons. It would be interesting, if you only faced lasguns, but those can't hurt raiders in the first place.
So long story short: if you can jump out, you don't need to and if something is going to shoot at you, that can down your raider, it's probably worse, than S4 AP-.

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 08:34

Quote :
So long story short: if you can jump out, you don't need to and if something is going to shoot at you, that can down your raider, it's probably worse, than S4 AP-.
It makes sense, but there are couple of more parameters in 6th :

- Jumping out and move may place you in rapid fire range and could be worth if not to exposed to ennemy fire.
- if you loose the vehicle and take the S4 dmg, you loose the DL where less S5 hits - grey knights i.e. ) would maybe kill less units ( which would do approximatively the same than the boat exploding I think ), whereas in 5th, with S3 hits, it was much better to stay inside.. For the venom, it's loosing 12 venom shots more, but the 5 mans inside if it's not a cc unit are gonna be dead really really fast.

I think it's less worth than it used to be, but it must depends of the situations.
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 10:27

Fruz, i had trouble decrypting what you wrote, but i got it Very Happy

Compare this: ap- vs ap5 or better - standard troop weapon ap.
against ap-, you can roll a 5up save, against ap5 standard weapon or better, you cant, so what is wounded will die. In a raider, you have a chance to survive even if wounds are rolled on a 3up.
s4 vs s4+: if the vehicle explodes - very hard to do that - you get 10 s4 hits, wounding on 3+ - 6.67 - what you can save on a 5up - 4.44 unsaved.
you get caught in the open, not in your transport, say a tac squad rapids with only bolters. That is 8.88 so 8-9 dead warriors.
4-5 vs 8-9...i think you get it Smile

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 10:32

Yeah, prolly better survability in maybe 90% situations or more so ( for the 10%, I mean situations where there are less than 10 hits in front of you that could destroy the raider for example, like strong heavy unit with a few shots ).
Iut I think that being able to disembark, move and shoot twice more may be worth if that means less back fire coming from the ennemy, depending on the situation of course.
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