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PostSubject: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 23:18

Got the new rule book and have played as dark eldar a couple of times and got used to the gun boats and wych raiders. However with the new rules the first thing i tried figuring out was the new way to move transport shoot and assault with raiders....

Because the are not only fast vehicles but also skimmers and opened topped and it just seems to overwhelm my mind and I cant quite fully understand how they work now.

When I say how they work I mean ; how far they can move and if the warriors can shoot if moved so much or can only some shoot, also can wychs only move 6 inches then disembark and then move and then charge? If somebody could almost type it in chart format. eg move 12in can disembark or shoot all weapons - move 18in and fire no weapons that would make it easy for me to understand and maybe anyone else who can fully get to grips. Hope that makes sense Smile

oh and I understand that Ravagers can still move 12in and fire all weapons at full BS



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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 23:38

The rules are fragmented, but it's actually pretty easy.


____disembark______move_______shoot_______________assault___________vehicle may move flat out after disembark
0"______yes_________yes_________yes__________________yes__________________yes
6"______yes_________yes_____as having moved_______only assault vehicles*_________no
12"______no__________no_____snap shots only____________no___________________no

flat out___no__________no__________no__________________no___________________n/a

*open topped vehicles always are assault vehicles


One thing to keep in mind is that moving flat out isn't done in the movement phase anymore, so it falls out of alignment because it happens after disembarking would take place.

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Last edited by Tiri Rana on Tue Jul 03 2012, 01:44; edited 3 times in total
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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 23:41

No problem! Raiders and Venomes Are Fast, Open-Topped Skimmers, so they work as follows (a few edits made to get everything correct):

If the Vehicle does not move in the Movement Phase:

1) passengers can fire all weapons normally, including heavy weapons; vehicle can fire all weapons

or

2) vehicle can move Flat out 18"; vehicle and passengers cannot fire at all

or

3) passengers can disembark in base contact with vehicle, move up to 6" and fire weapons (heavy weapon Snap Shots) then charge 2d6" (Fleet can re-roll one or more charge dice), total distance covered 6" plus 2d6", so up to 18"; and vehicle Flat Out 18"

or

4) passengers can disembark in base contact with vehicle, move up to 6", and fire weapons (heavy weapon Snap Shots) then run 1d6" (Fleet can re-roll the Run die), total distance covered 6" plus 1d6", so up to 12"; vehicle can Flat Out 18"

If the Vehicle moves at Combat Speed (up to 6") in the Movement Phase:

1) passengers can fire all weapons (heavy weapon Snap Shots); vehicle can fire all weapons

or

2) vehicle can move Flat out 18"; vehicle and passengers cannot fire at all

or

3) passengers can disembark in base contact with vehicle, move up to 6" and fire weapons (heavy weapon Snap Shots) then charge 2d6" (Fleet can re-roll one or more charge dice), total distance covered 12" plus 2d6", so up to 24"; and vehicle can fire all weapons (cannot move Flat Out)

or

4) passngers can disembark in base contact with vehicle, move up to 6", and fire weapons (heavy weapon Snap Shots) then run 1d6" (Fleet can re-roll the Run die), total distance covered 12" plus 1d6", so up to 18"; vehicle can fire all weapons (cannot move Flat Out)

If the vehicle moves at Cruising Speed (up to 12") in the Movement Phase:

1) passengers can fire all weapons as Snap Shots; vehicle can fire two weapons normally and all other weapons as Snap Shots (so Venoms fire both guns normally, Raiders fire both guns normally, Ravagers fire all three guns normally due to Aerial Assault)

or

2) Vehicle moves Flat Out up to 18"; passengers and vehicle cannot fire at all

If the passengers disembark before the vehicle moves, the vehicle can then move normally.

If a vehicle moves faster than Combat Speed (6"), passengers cannot disembark.


Last edited by Allandrel on Tue Jul 03 2012, 19:20; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 00:35

Yeah it is a little confusing, but I think I geddit! So we get the 5+ cover save for the vehicle if you move 1"-12" during movement phase? Then you gain a 4+ cover save if you Flat Out instead of shooting?

Is this correct?!

Also Tiri you might want to add Assault Vehicles next to Open Topped on your wonderful diagram (as open topped count as assault vehicles I believe...)

Edit: don't think you can Shoot then Run in the same phase Allandrel...

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 01:44

@dangerous beans wrote:
Also Tiri you might want to add Assault Vehicles next to Open Topped on your wonderful diagram (as open topped count as assault vehicles I believe...)
Thanks, expanded it.

@dangerous beans wrote:
Yeah it is a little confusing, but I think I geddit! So we get the 5+ cover save for the vehicle if you move 1"-12" during movement phase? Then you gain a 4+ cover save if you Flat Out instead of shooting?

Is this correct?!
Actually it is possible to not move at all and still go flat out, because you don't have to move in the movement phase to use flat out in the shooting phase and moving flat out just allows you to move up to 6" (12" if fast, 18" if also a skimmer), but never says that you have to move.

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Last edited by Tiri Rana on Tue Jul 03 2012, 03:17; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 02:24

@Tiri Rana wrote:
Actually it is possible to not move at all and still go flat out, because you don't have to move in the movement phase to use flat out in the shooting phase and moving flat out just allows you to move up to 6" (12" if fast), but never says that you have to move.

Flat Out goes up to 18" for a Fast Skimmer.
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 04:38

We can't Embark/Disembark then move flat out (Same as 5th)

Warriors in a Raider can move 6' and fire 2 Rapid Fire shots or 1 single full range.
Warriors in a Raider can move 12' and snap fire 2 rapid fire or 1 single full range - Splinter Racks will come in handy here.

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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 07:06

@1++ wrote:
We can't Embark/Disembark then move flat out (Same as 5th)

Not quite. If a vehicle moves before troops embark or disembark, it cannot move any further that turn, including pivoting on the spot.

p. 78, "Embarking," second paragraph:

"If the vehicle did not move before its passengers got aboard, it can move as normal after they embarked. In either case, it cannot Tank Shock or Ram in a turn that a unit embarks upon it."

p. 79, "Disembarking," second paragraph:

"If the vehicle had not moved before the unit disembarked, the vehicle can then move normally."

There's no restriction against moving Flat Out in either of those cases.
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 10:06

@Allandrel wrote:

3) passengers can disembark in base contact with vehicle, move up to 6" and fire weapons (heavy weapon Snap Shots) then charge 2d6" (Fleet can re-roll one or more charge dice), total distance covered 6" plus 2d6" plus width of passenger bases (about 1"), so up to 19"
not exactly - it is clearly stated, that after disembarking a unit must by FULLY within 6", which, according to the entry at the beginning of the book (about measuring) means you have to have the furthest point of model's base within 6"
so it's 18" anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 12:50

This is very helpful Smile thank you guys very much Very Happy

One thing about moving flat out - normal vehicles move 6in when using flat out (shooting phase of course) fast vehicles can go 12in and fast skimmers go 18in. So this surely means we can move 12 in during the movement phase and up to 18in during the shooting phase? Razz So thats 30in with 4+ cover save thanks to Jink.

Also about the Razorwing Jetfighter; originaly he could fly 12in and fire the whole shibang (2dark lances, splinter rifle/cannon and 4 misslies) if you read "Zooming And Shooting" p80 it says up to 4 weapons if moved 18in. 2 weapons if moved up to 36in the rest are Snap Fire. Flat Out (Shooting Phase) is between 12in and 24in - wow thats some distance! - But if you read "Special Weapon Systems" and "Missiles" p81 it says each missle can be fired once, up to 2 missles a turn and that counts to your total of weapons fired: and we have 4 missles. So 2 missles a turn can be used twice basicly.

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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 13:39

Actually, a flyer can fire 4 weapons even if it moves 36''. According to the BRB section about flyers, a flyer can fire 4 weapons at full bs is it moves at eighter combat (18'') or cruising (36'') speed.

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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 13:51

@Captain Hive wrote:
This is very helpful Smile thank you guys very much Very Happy

One thing about moving flat out - normal vehicles move 6in when using flat out (shooting phase of course) fast vehicles can go 12in and fast skimmers go 18in. So this surely means we can move 12 in during the movement phase and up to 18in during the shooting phase? Razz So thats 30in with 4+ cover save thanks to Jink.
Just remember that in the opponents shooting if you get immobilised you crash. (thankfully you can normally disembark, but still - it hurts)

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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 16:03

@wilku wrote:
@Captain Hive wrote:
This is very helpful Smile thank you guys very much Very Happy

One thing about moving flat out - normal vehicles move 6in when using flat out (shooting phase of course) fast vehicles can go 12in and fast skimmers go 18in. So this surely means we can move 12 in during the movement phase and up to 18in during the shooting phase? Razz So thats 30in with 4+ cover save thanks to Jink.
Just remember that in the opponents shooting if you get immobilised you crash. (thankfully you can normally disembark, but still - it hurts)

Not quite, if immobilize your are vector locked, meaning you stay in the same movement speed class you were in before.(or something to that effect)
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 16:33

@Sendreavus wrote:
@wilku wrote:
@Captain Hive wrote:
This is very helpful Smile thank you guys very much Very Happy

One thing about moving flat out - normal vehicles move 6in when using flat out (shooting phase of course) fast vehicles can go 12in and fast skimmers go 18in. So this surely means we can move 12 in during the movement phase and up to 18in during the shooting phase? Razz So thats 30in with 4+ cover save thanks to Jink.
Just remember that in the opponents shooting if you get immobilised you crash. (thankfully you can normally disembark, but still - it hurts)

Not quite, if immobilize your are vector locked, meaning you stay in the same movement speed class you were in before.(or something to that effect)

To put it simple - you're wrong. we're talking about fast skimmers here, not flyers - please pay more attention.
It's written explicitly, black on white, p. 83, Skimmers section. in bold:
BRB wrote:
If it moved Flat Out in this, or the previous, turn a Skimmer that suffers an Immobilised result immediately crashes and is Wrecked).

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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 19:19

@wilku wrote:
not exactly - it is clearly stated, that after disembarking a unit must by FULLY within 6", which, according to the entry at the beginning of the book (about measuring) means you have to have the furthest point of model's base within 6"
so it's 18" anyway.

Thanks, I'll correct the listing.
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 19:54

Quote :
Warriors in a Raider can move 12' and snap fire 2 rapid fire or 1 single full range - Splinter Racks will come in handy here.
1 single >>>> 2 snap rapid fire
Where is it written that all the passenger can use their full BS after having moved at cruising speed btw ? I didn't find it in the rule book, skimmers' special rules don't mention passengers' ability to shoot ( or I didn"t find it, it"s so stupid not having any rule concerning that part ) and moving at cruising speed only allow snap shots.
shooting with full BS is only after having moved up to 6" from what I understood in the book.
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 23:30

So erm, this'll likely be a bleeding obvious questions - but speaking more tactically rather than determining rules (which is of course also useful), how do you guys use/manouvre raiders+warrior transporters? Is it really worth closing to within 12" rapid fire range and thus also enemy assault is a likely probability! Or to instead hang back and let the longer ranges do the killing? My guess is turn 1: if nighfighting is in effect then hang back at 24" and gain the Stealth bonus. If no nightfighting then close up, firing as you go, to within 12" whilst protecting/distracting/luring the opponets by using a nearby assault unit... If they run towards your gunboat then that unit gets into his lines, but if he deals with the unit then the gunboat is not assaulted (but likely shot down anyway with massed anti tank fire!)

I have never used gunboats before so please excuse my noobish comments...! Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 07:31

I've never used gunboats either, but now with the overwatch shooting it seems tempting. I'd think twice before assaulting a raider with splinter racks and 10 warriors, as this results in (statistically, no special weapon chosen):

20 SR snap shots (assuming you moved more than 6") with re-roll, which means avg of 3 (1st roll) + 2,5 (re-roll) poisoned shots, so it's approx 2,75 wounds inflicted ( of course then come save rolls - in case of a MEQ this leaves statistically one model less)
The result of charging a raider will be a wrecked raider, and the assaulting unit standing rifht there to get shot by 20 warrior shots on the next round or get charged by anything else.

I guess that gunboats will rather be shot down than assaulted.

Alandrel - please edit point 4 in your long list of movement options - there's no way warriors shoot and then run...

And... Do we get an overwatchc if the raider moved flat out the previous turn?

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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 09:47

Wouldn't the destroyed Raider inflict S4 hits on the Warriors inside?
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 12:51

in 5th, it was easier to bail out from OTT so it only inflicted s3 hits on them, and i hope they kept this rule Smile if not, then ouch :S

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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 13:12

It is now S4 always, but only if it explodes, because of penetrating hits. If you're wrecked because of hull points, the passengers just disembark and resist being pinned.

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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 13:28

There are still 50% chance to explode with AP2 weapons on heavy dmgs =((((
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 13:31

@Tiri: I can't seem to find any mention of that under the entry for open topped vehicles. However, on pg. 80 under wrecked it says that a unit bailing out of a wrecked vehicle must take a pinning test.

I'm not saying your wrong, but I can't find anything to that effect myself. Where did you read that?
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 13:36

You are right, there is no mention under the open topped vehicles entry, so they use the standard rules for transport vehicles and these say, that if the vehicle is wrecked, they disembark 3" and take a pinning test and if it explodes, they take a S4 AP- hit and are placed in the crater.

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PostSubject: Re: Raiders Transporting Warriors   Raiders Transporting Warriors I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 15:30

@wilku wrote:
I've never used gunboats either, but now with the overwatch shooting it seems tempting. ?


"Gun boats" are fun... (10 Warriors w/ splint rifles; splinter racks on the Raider). And after playing a bit of 6th Ed, I've decided to try replacing the dark lance on their ride with a dissintegrator, to better help them kill non-vehicle models.
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