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 ... and they shall meet Drazhar

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Grumpy Kwi
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Grumpy Kwi

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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 21:38

What is the general consensus on Drazhar's "Darting Strike" and challenges?

Can Drazhar accept a challenge and then dart off leaving the challengee just standing there?

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@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 22:02

@pingualoty wrote:
None of those Quantum Shielded vehicles have AV13 rear, only the front and sides are affected by it, they all have 11 rear.

::re-checks Codex: Necrons::

By Jove, you're right! Eat hot melee attacks, Necrons!
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 22:48

@Grumpy Kwi wrote:
What is the general consensus on Drazhar's "Darting Strike" and challenges?

Can Drazhar accept a challenge and then dart off leaving the challengee just standing there?

Well, I don't have the BRB already, but then none of them could attack, because in a challenge they're restricted to attack each other...

Unless I knew I'm not able to kill the guy, I wouldn't ran away with Drazhar like a coward. But is a viable way to nullify an IC or a bad situation.

IMO, this rule is made to hunt coward ICs or other special models.

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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 23:56

@Grumpy Kwi wrote:
What is the general consensus on Drazhar's "Darting Strike" and challenges?

Can Drazhar accept a challenge and then dart off leaving the challengee just standing there?

FAQ states that Darting Strike takes place after challenges have been issued. Can Drazhar really just accept a challenge, then jump away? Would make little sense, as isn't he supposed to start whacking the guy that challenged him while being unable to hit anyone else?

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 00:46

If this is possible, you can likely guarrantee it won't stay that way: I personally don't think Drazarr can omit challenges like that, even though his rules read RAW seem to imply that you can. I need to re-read the section on challenges to know more about the level of 'binding contract' of them...

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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 00:53

after reading the FAQs first thing that came to mind was a single boat carrying drazhar and lileth and a fodder of incubi. (fodder may be a very insulting title in this addition but that would be their purpose) 3 units capable of slaughtering anything in CC ontop of the "sir look out" rule. either character can challenge and probaly win (with both gives a better scenerio option). and beleiv it or not its about 600pts to feild but a potential massacre for a turn 2
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CaptainBalroga
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 01:54

If you're going against Terminators, "fodder" is sort of accurate. 8 Incubi+ Demiklaives Klaivex as of 6th barely outperform a solitary Drazhar vs. vanilla Termies, but double his effectiveness against Storm Shields...until they start taking wounds, and lose their extra attack from charging, whereas Drazhar can shrug off a Wound or two and cares less about the charge.

All told, Drazhar makes his Incubi squad better when fighting a small unit of one of their worst matchups, but for the points your opponent could buy 10 Terminators, and that fight isn't going to go well.

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 01:57

Drazhar's background info in the codex says he always emerges victorious in his duels. Funny thing tho, he hasn't spoken so I think it kind of funny he can challenge a foe with just a nod of his head.

So if you got a Klaivex or Drazhar you use either for the challenge, how does Drazhar fair against someone like Draigo? Would you rather sacrifice the Klaivex and let Drazhar chop up the body guards or are we better off just letting Drazhar go toe to toe?

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@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 02:30

just adding my two bit, it seemed to me that he/lileth can use the incubi as a last second sheild aslong as you dont use the "Look out sir". since most termiesquads i face dont have a character lileth and drazhar should be able to take on the entire by them selves. no more fearless saves to force rolling but a rediculas amount of heavy hitting attacks should be enough. I only tried taking drazhar a couple times and always paird him with lileth. got a brother sister synergy going onwhen i do and they faired well in 5ed. i dont see why they wouldnt continue to do so if you can isolate wounds to more deadly foes before they get to strike. cuz let not forget, klaivex has two abilities that can rival either IC. if you wanted he could issue the challenge and allow the siblings to demolish the unit.
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CaptainBalroga
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 02:40

[WARNING: FRACTIONAL WOUNDS. DO NOT PANIC]

Hmm. Let's say neither of them has a charge bonus. Say Team Draigo charged Drazhar's squad, but there was a friendly Archon there to provide them with defensive grenades.

Drazhar wins Initiative, claps his Demiklaives, names Preferred Enemy, Onslaught is being applied as a bonus 1/12th of a hit for every hit. 4 attacks, 3.25 hits, 2.17 wound, Draigo gets a 3+ save and takes 0.72 Wounds.

Draigo uses Hammerhand, realizes that Drazhar is not a Daemon, but does have a nice AP 3 master-crafted force weapon. 4 attacks, 3 hits, 2.5 wound, Drazhar gets his 2+ save and takes 0.42 Wounds, and additionally can Riposte for, say, 0.12 Wounds on Draigo.

0.84 Wounds to 0.42 Wounds per phase. It's a bit of a slog, but even with Draigo's +1 Wound, bet on Drazhar to come out on top.

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Sendreavus
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 02:50

I believe it says in pg 64(challenges) in the rulebook that regardless of what happens the challenge is considered to be ongoing till the end of the phase. Even if one of the combatants is slain.

Under the Outside Forces heading:

Whilst the challenge is ongoing, only the challenger and challangee can strike blows against one another.

The FAQ is worded such that you can darting strike after challenges have been issued/accepted/decline, not after the challenge is resolved. The challenge is considered ongoing for the whole assault phase, regardless of outcome.

The conclusion I come to is that Drazhar does not skirt the challenge rules since the way they word it is very explicit in the FAQ about when it happens. If he is involved in a challenge you have to either accept/declare and decline and resolve those consequences before darting strike can happen. Either you get stuck in a challenge or decline and do nothing.

Best way to get around that methinks is have the klaivex challenge and then drazhar snipe a juicy target.

*Edit
This is meant as a reply to Siticus and Dangerous
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 02:55

@Sendreavus wrote:

Best way to get around that methinks is have the klaivex challenge and then drazhar snipe a juicy target.

maby im just horrable at wording things, but thats more or less my perspective, if you have a less valuable character take a few hits while your remaining 2 character+incubi wipe out the opposing unit. following turn you should be able to gang up on your selected ICand put the odds in your favor.
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Guile22
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 05:26

You can run Lillith and Drazhar together. Charge squad with IC, Drazhar can select that IC for his preferred enemy rules. Then have Lillith issue the challenge, she will have preferred enemy against the IC since the rules for preferred enemy are if one person in the unit has it the entire squad gets it (Lillith is in the squad with Drazhar so she will also have preferred enemy against the IC). She gets her crazy number of attacks ignoring armor saves with re-rolls to hit and wound (helping to overcome her weak S3) while Drazhar can lay waste to the rest of the unit, even darting to a different spot in the combat to snipe a character or specialist weapon while LIllith takes on the challenge.
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 08:25

Lelith+Drazhar+Incubi... is this going to be the 6th edition DE deathstar??? I, must, have, it. Twisted Evil

And don't forget the Shardnet-hair!!




Some people would say that Vect's Universal Preferred Enemy makes a better synergy for Lelith...


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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 09:21

Drazhar + Lelith is a bit of an overkill imho.

Drazhar is good to challenge an IC with 2+ armor inside a MEQ unit, not to go against termies. TH/SS terminators are too good in this edition to go against them. Shoot them from afar, that's the only real option.
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 10:24

@Ereshkigal wrote:
Drazhar + Lelith is a bit of an overkill imho.

Drazhar is good to challenge an IC with 2+ armor inside a MEQ unit, not to go against termies. TH/SS terminators are too good in this edition to go against them. Shoot them from afar, that's the only real option.

Drazhar+Lelith are good enough againts termies. 10+ attacks that ignore 2+ saves in a couple that reduces enemy attacks and is quite tough by itself. They should kill the AP2 weapons first (or those that instakill lelith).

But you're right when you say that they are better against ICs (those that we will se more with the new detachment and allies rules... up to 3 HQs at >2000 points and even more (4 or 6 if 2detachment+2allies) at +2000 points.


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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 11:36

allies use your own detatchment so you have 2hq, not 3 (or 4 at 2000). And btw with the new rules i think very few will play at 2000 points or more. The game will be unbalanced as hell... just think at 6 tank squadron from IG...
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ShadowSpirit
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 12:23

2000+ points would help Nidz as they could use the full potential of 6 Elite slots, not to mention Heavy slots as well. Unfortunately, IG vehicle squadrons ar eimbalanced as they are at lower points, so as soon as Nidz would benefit from duoble FOC, others would benefit much more from it... Sad

Although I just don's understand why can't Ravagers be taken in squads of three as thes are only 105 (i know, FF/NS, 115/125) pts, about the same as IG stuff. ) Ravagers would be awesome and would resemble the overwhelming piratic fleet of the Dark Eldar.

But wait a minute, DE are not Imperium. They cannot be cool. Sorry, my mistake Sad
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 12:51

@Ereshkigal wrote:
allies use your own detatchment so you have 2hq, not 3 (or 4 at 2000). And btw with the new rules i think very few will play at 2000 points or more. The game will be unbalanced as hell... just think at 6 tank squadron from IG...

6 tank squadrons??? that's a helluva lot of points... I'd counter them with 6 of our fliers (they couldn't hurt them with blasts at all but we'd do fine), and then I'd still have enough points left to get some HW wyches in raiders AND Lelith+Drazhar+Incubi to onslaught the CGs and troops.

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Last edited by Eldur on Tue Jul 03 2012, 12:54; edited 1 time in total
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 13:34

Couldn't find any mention stating that allied detachment slots count against you main detachment's ones. Infact, the way allied detachments are presneted would suggest othervise (they're essentially their own separate army with own FOC). So you could have 2 DE HQs and 1 allied HQ.

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Guile22
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 15:07

2000 points is great for us now. I already have an army list drawn up at 2000 points with 3 Ravagers (including 2 with disintegrators to make Termies weep), 2 Razorwings and a Talos. Once Void Raven comes out I will be making that 3 Ravagers, 2 Razorwings (fitted for Air-Ground attack with disintegrators and splinter cannon) and 1 Void Raven to knock opposing aircraft out of the sky. It's a lot of points but at 2000 you can do it.
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 17:34

Correct me if I'm wrong:
< 2000 points: 1 detachment

Mandatory
1 HQ
2 Troops

Optional
1 HQ
3 Elites
4 Troops
3 Fast Attack
3 Heavy Support
1 Fortification
1 Allied Army: (1 HQ, 1Troop --> then up to 1 of each [Elites, Troops, Fast Attack, Heavy Support])


Between 2000 and 3999: 2 Detachments

Mandatory
2 HQ
4 Troops

Optional
2 HQ
6 Elites
8 Troops
6 Fast Attack
6 Heavy Support
2 Fortification
2 Allies:
1st Ally-->(1 HQ, 1Troop --> then up to 1 of each [Elites, Troops, Fast Attack, Heavy Support])
2nd Ally-->(1 HQ, 1Troop --> then up to 1 of each [Elites, Troops, Fast Attack, Heavy Support])

for me, 2 detachments without allies is brutal enough for our army XD

BUT REMEMBER that if you abuse of Elite slots, for example, you won't get any benefit in some missions while FA or HS do get benefits.

Also remember that Flyers can't capture objectives.


Back to the topic!!! ---> If you used Drazhar as a Warlord, which powers would you like to have??

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 21:55

Yes but the allied army uses your own detachment slots. If you watch the figure in the allies detachment it doesn't have any number for any slot, so it's hinted that you have to use your own.
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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 04:12

it does state they use your current roster so only 2 HQ unless its a big game, the catch is if you take and ally HQ you have to have your own HQ also(as im understanding it) so you need 2 trrop and an HQ and if you take an ally 1HQ and 1Troop in addition. thats realy making it not worth using for some armys. but luckily eldar cusins follow the same/similar build to us so its hardly a handicap considering if a IG takes a charecture and gives up one for a Tau charecture their infantrys are more or less the same efficieny. but as to a space wolves and grey nights (poor allys but..) they can have 4 HQs if im not mistaken. which means a crap load of heavy hitters spreading out across the board. even we could benefit from havign 4 hqs in a typical game(under 2k) but anything over is 6+ for them
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 05:23

Quote :
it does state they use your current roster so only 2 HQ unless its a big game

Where does it say that? I didn't see that at all...

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