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Eldur
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PostSubject: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 09:39

I thought, as many others, that Incubi would be nerfed in 6th... and well, with only AP3 in their weapons TEQ units are too much for them.

But then we have the "not that cheaper in 5th" Klaivex, and his multi-purpose Demiklaives...
Separate: +2A, AP3
OR
Clasped: +2S AP2 (see FAQ)

So he is able to do some damage to 2+save units or characters (add Preferred Enemy here).

So we can look at this unit and say...

... and they shall meet Drazhar  Tumblr_lltzgnHi5F1qzib3wo1_400


BUT THEN AGAIN, we have the "not that cheaper in 5th" Drazhar, with his EW rule, his "super 2+ save in 6th", his Demiklaives and his Darting Strike rule which allows him to move wherever he wants in combat (if there's room) AFTER any challenge is made (note: remember that pile-in moves are only 3" now).

Now he has become a real killer, and he is still able to avoid being killed.


What do you think? With his ability to make Incubi fearless, he will be in my lists for sure. And the Klaivex too.

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NiteOwl
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 10:08

Tho he costs 230 points I think he will be worth it. Aslong he doesn't get sniped out by some pesky deathmarks or something similair...or shot by anything that can take his save away...but when he get into combat he will be a monster, hands down. In there he will be nearly immortal. So I say, yes go with Drazhar Very Happy

The klaivex seem quite appealing now. His ability to kill almost every character there is should not be underestimated. With prefered enemy, strinking first with big klaive or 2 small klaives he is very durable. If you give him bloodstone you can overwatch with it.....but then, if your incbui get charged, you are doing it wrong.
The klaivex is expensive hands down. Tho I think he may be worth it against some armies, like marines and crons for example. Imagine a marine captain/chaptermaster in a marine squad of some kind (not termie). The IC will have a 2+ AS and the rest a 3+ AS. Let the incubi rip those marines to french fries and let the klaivex challange the captain/chaptermaster. Fair and square, you will not be bad against that. Crons can also take characters with a 2+ AS and place him among lesser warriors. You see how I think tongue

I would take Drazhar if me and my friends played with SCs, but we doesn't play with SCs so I will never be able to try him out sadly, but maybe that incubi squad with a klaivex will find their place amongst my ranks soon Smile)

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 10:27

Necrons will suffer Drazhar... also he can avoid Mindshackle Scarabs by using his Darting Strike ability.

Bad thing! FAQed rules for Triarch stalkers: their weapons are AP2.... then I'll send them wyches or beasts,

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 11:45

I assume you mean the Praetorians. They hit with i1 tho, and have no invulnerable saves, and given their price they rarely come in units bigger than 5. Drazhar and Klaivex should be able to wipe out most, if not all of the unit themselves, and the remaining will do 1-2 hits (depending on who charged) that hit on 4+. Incubi with Drazhar and Klaivex can still do a number on 2+ units. It's the 2+ units thta also have an insanely good invulnerable that are the problem.

Also, RAW it seems Drazhar would get fnp against even power fists. They removed the mention in fnp that hits that cause instant death deny fnp even from models immune to ID. now it just says that hits that cause ID ignore fnp. Eternal warrior makes you immune to instant death (so nothing causes ID on you).

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 11:57

@Nomic wrote:
I assume you mean the Praetorians. They hit with i1 tho, and have no invulnerable saves, and given their price they rarely come in units bigger than 5. Drazhar and Klaivex should be able to wipe out most, if not all of the unit themselves, and the remaining will do 1-2 hits (depending on who charged) that hit on 4+. Incubi with Drazhar and Klaivex can still do a number on 2+ units. It's the 2+ units thta also have an insanely good invulnerable that are the problem.

Also, RAW it seems Drazhar would get fnp against even power fists. They removed the mention in fnp that hits that cause instant death deny fnp even from models immune to ID. now it just says that hits that cause ID ignore fnp. Eternal warrior makes you immune to instant death (so nothing causes ID on you).

yep, sorry I writed it wrong!

HELL YES, also if Drazhar (and/or Klaivex) kills an IC soon enough then he and his unit will get FnP in that same combat phase.

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cbosw5
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 13:16

Or you could have some fun with a haemonculus. Twisted Evil
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StaticVortex
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 14:03

He's too expensive, they said. There are better options, they said.

I have to admit, it makes me chuckle just a little bit that Drazhar is suddenly sexy - he's as much as a beast as he ever was, and has won me several games...one noteworthy being against IG who had blasted all but a unit of Wracks squatting on an objective. One by one the four Incubi surrounding Drazhar fell between chopping through units until it was only Drazhar left, who carved out the rest.

I have however, been considering taking Vect - anyone have experience with the man?
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Baron Tordeck
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 14:10

He was a powerhouse in 5th. Havnt gotten a chance yet ot test him in 6th.

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 14:57

I played Vect not too long ago against the Necrons and the storm lord. The Necron player crashed his Dias and charged Vect and his squad of wyches with haemy with 2 Triarch Walkers. One Triarch was ruined by the wyches but the other Triarch eventually killed all the wyches leaving just Vect and his 1 haywire attack.

In 5th, he needed a "6" to plant the haywire and I know I glanced the darned thing 4 or 5 times (back when the wyches were still alive).

Looking at 6th edition it looks Vect would have hit more often now (and correct me if I am wrong) but now Vect would be hitting with haywires according to his WS now? 3+?

I really do not mind Vect only having a unique power weapon - the amount of attacks he has still makes him a wrecking ball against the average joe (sure, maybe not against Vulkan) but he will wreck face by combat resolution against most everyone else.

I like both Vect and Drazhar but haven't tried Drazhar yet, you guys are making him look good in my eyes.

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Archon Farath Mure
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 16:13

My archon still wants his bodyguards, and I'll still be taking a klaivex for my incubi. I won't take Drazhar, though, he still seems pricier than I'd like.

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 16:26

I tried Vect in 5h several times and i always ended up saying to myself: sure he killed draigo, but one more troop was better anyway. Now that Vect can't kill most of the other SC, i think it's not worth the points. If we pick vect only to steal initiative, baron will be better and cheaper.

Drazhar on the other hand is becoming sexier. Where everyone was nerfed, drazhar stayed the same, thus gaining power in comparison. I want to try him in a 1500 list together with 3 incubi and a klaivex. To change the pace of my usual archon with only a blaster or hamie with shattershard and liquifier,
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 16:34

well... he did kinda gain an Invul if we get him FNP, and also combined with how wound allocation works, he can just pick and choose what to destroy in the unit. So sniping that PF is or Sang Priest is a major thing.

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Archon Farath Mure
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 16:39

Right. He's worth his points, but I think I prefer another gunboat.

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 19:15

The only thing that I'm waiting for is THE NEW MODELS!
.. I hope there's one for the klaivex... if not, then maybe I could make a conversion with the Archon's horned head and an Incubus body.


Some of you talked about Vect...

Pros of Vect:
- Blast shot, anti-MEQ, that heals him.
- Lots of attacks with Preferred enemy
- Gives Preferred Enemy to his unit.
- 3+ to wound always
- Flickerfield
- 4 wounds
- Dais... now it shots better and is a good transport (13 armor all sides, jink save!!) but this is for another +200 points so it's not that important in the comparison.
- HW grenades.
- 4+ stealing initiative.
- 2+ "Look out sir" save now.

Cons of Vect
-T6 AND no EW
- Flickerfield ends at some-dice, some days...
- No FnP with S6 attacks... only his 6++ left to a S6 deadly wound
- No fearless until 3 PTs
- No use of 2nd PT
- Only AP3 attacks (shots and combat)



Pros of Drazhar
- Lots of S4/5 AP3 attacks or a fair amount of S6/7 AP 2 attacks
-Preferred Enemy against ICs, and gives it to his unit.
- Darting Strike for evasion or to kill non-challenging miniatures or characters.
- 2+ save, unless against the odd (in xenos) or unwieldly (in humans) AP 2 combat weapons.
- Fearless rule, that confers to his Incubi!!!
- He also confers Murderous Assault to them.
- He is an Eternal warrior.
- His FnP is eternal also.
- Gains benefit from the first 2 PTs.
- Enough strenght to hurt light vehicles.

Cons of Drazhar
- No shots
- No grenades-->No HW grenades (he can't hurt Armor 13 vehicles without 2 PTs, and he won't ever hurt Armor 14)
- No "invulnerable save" until first PT.
-3 Wounds "only"


Did I miss something????

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Last edited by Eldur on Mon Jul 02 2012, 20:42; edited 1 time in total
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 19:56

Actually Vect does benefit the unit he joins. The new rules state that if one model in unit has preferred enemy, they all have it. Which as actually pretty nice (works with Drazhar/Klaivex and Incubi as well, but their preferred enemy is more limited, working only against 1 ic each turn).

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 20:10

How many vehicles have 13-14 rear armor?
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 20:34

@Ereshkigal wrote:
How many vehicles have 13-14 rear armor?

Land Raiders (all versions), and Necron Monoliths have rear AV14.

The Dais of Destruction has rear AV 13. Necron Ghost Arks, Arks of Destruction, Catacomb Command Barges, Annihilation Barges, and Triarch Stalkers that have not yet suffered a Penetrating hit have rear AV13, after a single penetrating hit it goes down to 11 for the rest of the game.

Space Marine Drop Pods and Stormraven Gunships have rear AV 12.

Every other vehicle in the game has rear AV 10 or 11.
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 20:38

My question was retorical... no one plays monolyth or raiders (and for sure we don't fear those). Other than that only necron vehicles can have 13 rear armor.
So drazhar could do some dmg to almost all vehicles used in the game
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 20:40

@Nomic wrote:
Actually Vect does benefit the unit he joins. The new rules state that if one model in unit has preferred enemy, they all have it. Which as actually pretty nice (works with Drazhar/Klaivex and Incubi as well, but their preferred enemy is more limited, working only against 1 ic each turn).

WOW! This is awesome. I'll edit my post then!

@Ereshkigal wrote:
How many vehicles have 13-14 rear armor?

Land Raiders, ALL Necron vehicles, the Dais Laughing , fortifications etc. ...

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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 20:41

Land Raiders, and that's enough... Youre probably going to be seeing a lot more of those in the near future...

Also, no one has addressed the issue that our lances dont work on land raiders anymore... they are for some reason immune to our lance effect...

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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 20:49

@Ruke wrote:
Also, no one has addressed the issue that our lances dont work on land raiders anymore... they are for some reason immune to our lance effect...

What do you base that on?
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 20:52

@Ruke wrote:
Land Raiders, and that's enough... Youre probably going to be seeing a lot more of those in the near future...

Also, no one has addressed the issue that our lances dont work on land raiders anymore... they are for some reason immune to our lance effect...

Only ones with blessed hull.
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 20:54

@Ruke wrote:

Also, no one has addressed the issue that our lances dont work on land raiders anymore... they are for some reason immune to our lance effect...

Unless the lance rule has disappeared, that's wrong except for blessed hull. But if that was the case, LR would be dead anyway with our HW power. hahaha!!

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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 21:12

Is it only with blessed hull? Thought they got a new rule for that... I'm still waiting on my book to arrive, so all i have is a #%#@$% right now...

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PostSubject: Re: ... and they shall meet Drazhar    ... and they shall meet Drazhar  I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 21:19

@Allandrel wrote:
@Ereshkigal wrote:
How many vehicles have 13-14 rear armor?

Land Raiders (all versions), and Necron Monoliths have rear AV14.

The Dais of Destruction has rear AV 13. Necron Ghost Arks, Arks of Destruction, Catacomb Command Barges, Annihilation Barges, and Triarch Stalkers that have not yet suffered a Penetrating hit have rear AV13, after a single penetrating hit it goes down to 11 for the rest of the game.

Space Marine Drop Pods and Stormraven Gunships have rear AV 12.

Every other vehicle in the game has rear AV 10 or 11.

None of those Quantum Shielded vehicles have AV13 rear, only the front and sides are affected by it, they all have 11 rear.

In a Dark Eldar army with lances the AV14 vehicles will already be dead and it would fair to assume you will only close combat against AV10 or 11 rear so Drazhar does a fine job if you have nothing else to assault.
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