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 Wyches are awesome now!

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 18:11

@Allandrel wrote:
@Enfernux wrote:
Massaen: with a 4+ cs, you wont be shooting and charging me.

RJB's have Jink and Skilled Rider, which means they have a 4+ cover save if they moved at all during their cover save and can still shoot and charge without penalty.

Thanks for quoting the exact rules!

I am trying to avoid reading the rule book... the ETC in a few weeks is using 5th ed and i am trying to keep 6th away from my cluttered brain!

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 02:43

@ Enfernux: I appreciate your attempts for constructive criticism, however if you are RJBs then I do not think that it would be hard for them to land on the opposite side of the target enemy unit from the wyches, pour their firepower in and then see whether the wyches firepower is REALLY needed or not. Its fairly obvious that you do not want to wipe out enemy models that could prevent you from realistically getting the charge - the whole purpose would be ruined if you aren't careful.

Please explain why PFP for a 5+ that you get VS AP 1 and 2 weaponry or Power Weapons is waste? Simply writing statements without explanation is not going to get you constructive responses and discussions - which is afterall (hopefully!) why we are all here: to learn, improve and understand based on experience, ideas and help.

In fact, on a that subject, and I don't mean to sound nagging but it would certainly help for the discussions that you, myself and others are having: it is very difficult to understand which sections you are 'quoting' or talking about: Dark City has an excellent QUOTE function so that you can identify which parts of a person's previous post you are writing about: it saves time too: I would please ask that you consider using the quote system.

I know that this is probably being perceived as 'aggresive' or that you are being singled out, but I am in fact trying to help you so that people can understand your background, ideas and evidence in a more clear and logical manner. I'll disuss the other parts you mention in my next post when I have thought it through some more - you've me some things to consider!

@ Massaen: this one is for you... Wink https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAYhNHhxN0A

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 03:19

Hahaha!!!! Love it

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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 14:28

let me throw in my 2 cents again.

If you are a dark eldar player, and most of us are I presume.

Rule 1 is do not play fair
the entire premise debated so far is whether or not 10 wyches should be charging 10 of anything else. That is mistake number 1. 10 wyches, which despite popular thoughts of the day, are not a combat elite unit. They are not equal to marines. They should be looked at more like guardsmen with some Bruce Lee kung fu training hoped up on caffeine and jelly beans. They die ridiculously easy in the open, break fairly easily, and don't do well with explosions.

That being said, their 4+ in close combat is great, their ability to take out armor is 2nd to none, and have the ability to wear down units that are not close combat elite units. Think Tactical marines, guard, tau etc.

So while the concept here is done in a vacum, for an assault in 6th to be effective, it needs to be supported.

Let assume we have 10 wychs vs 10 tactical marines, since that kind of been one of the ideas laid out.

A wych squad has a hekatrix with a blast pistol and an agonzier, 9 regular wyches and a raider nearby that dropped them off previous turn. Plus lets assume a ravager and a venom with nothing better to do.

Ravager and venom are not behind the wyches, so they will draw wounds from the sides of the marines.

Hekatrix shoots and hits with a blast pistol, killinga marine, but lets say he makes his 4+.

Wyches throws a grenade and manages to kill one marine. 9 marines

Splinter fire from 8 other wyches, 6 hit, 3 wound and 1 dies. 8 marines left.

Venom fires, hits 8 times, wounds 4 times, kills one more marine. 7 marines left.

Raider fires, misses. Mine always do, but I figure I would throw in in there.

Ravager fires, hits twice, manages to kill one more marine after cover saves. 6 marines left.

now assault. 6 marines shoot, 1 hits plus a flamer for 2 wounds. assume 2 wounds. we are now 8 wyches to 6 marines.

hekatrix swings, hits twice, wounds once, one dead marine. 5 marines left.

7 other wyches hit 12 times, just to kee the math simple, wound 4 times, and 2 more marines die. 3 marines left.

2 marines swing back, hit once, but wych makes invul.

sgt with powerfist swings back, hits twice wounds twice, and kills one wyches. 7 wyches left.

marines make their test and remain locked.

Next marine turn, they die, and we move on to the next victim.

This is how it should be done. Overwatch did knock down a couple models, so what. Marine unit is effectively wiped out and wyches are safe in close combat where next close combat phase, they can finish off the marines and move on.

Yes, I did take a number of assumptions, as seems prudent, since wyches are not marines, and the biggest implication I have gotten from the naysayers is that wyches are nerfed and useless because they can fight or save like marines. Let me politely point out that the wych stat line has not changed and they are still delicate. Combats need to be picked out and set up and supported.

Wyches operating on their own trying to out fight about half of the units in the game is a recipe for getting dead really fast, new rules or not. Nothing has changed.

SO I will finish with wyches are awesome, but like so many other things, the DE general needs to put the right tool in the right place.

I wonder why this concept is so hard to fathom. I have not read a thread title " Why venoms suck against armor 14".

Whyches are very good at dealing with small units of MEQ, but not assault marines, and equivalent units of GEQ.

The idea is to put them where they will win the combat and give them the support to to win. I personally would set up my transport assault so there was not any point for units inside of rhinos to escape, and so they died inside, or only a couple models would make it out.

I like the idea of Reavers flat out over target unit is a good one I think and bears some playtesting. Add in a hameii with a liquifier gun, which is a tactic I use frequently, and about half the time, 3 or 4 models go away before the assault has ever been fought.

Of course the counter argument is that if I kill too many, they you won't make the charge. Well that is true, but we do get to re-roll our assault distance, so there is a reasonable chance that you could make it. But how is this different from before when you got a bad run roll?? I don't see a difference. assaults have never been guaranteed, so we need to do what is necessary to ensure the best odds of success. I feel it is not at all constructive to say assault is dead. I don't thin it is, but I think that assault is not what it used to be, and so some tweaks need to be made to make assaults as bias as can be in our favor.

Anyhoo, I could go on and on, but I have laid out some ideas I think that should kind of go hand in hand with assaults.




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Ichiyo1821
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 17:25

I agree on Gar on all his points.I rarely post on forums as to avoid negative criticism and pre-conceived notions about Warhammer in general until I experience them first hand. I run 3 units of 8 Wyches in 5th with your usua set-up of Heka/Ago/Haemiquifier and after 2 2k games in with 6th edition I beg to differ that Wyches are no longer viable. 4+ FNP, AP power weapons or not, never did I use my Wyches to go headstrong against a 10 Assault Squad or even a plan 10man tact squad without softening it up first. More often than not I charge in 2 units of Wyches into one group of Tactsquads or 5-7 man Terminators when they are almost atleast half their original strength. Before I made any adjustments to my list, I tried 6th edition with my 5th edition list and units. A couple of minor adjustments and guess what.

Almost nothing changed. I still shot units up before I charge my Wyches in. I still gang bang on Tactsquads, I blow up the Land Raider and let him Hammernators footslog while I make him eat 4 Venoms and a couple of Lances and Blasters. Wyches may have lost the ability to kill Terminators or be as resilient to bolter shots as before but they have more than gained in other aspects of the game. One squad of Wyches in my game earlier wrecked a Furioso Dreadnought, killed a Landraider single handedly before finally succumbing to a Jump pack assault with 5 still standing. Haywire grenades simply **** up armor in this edition. Even a Landraider Achilles has no chance against them and if they are not throwing grenades and glance bombing armor, they can still tarpit a unit now that 4+ dodge ad still get FNP even against power weapons which was not even possible before. To be honest with hull point damage on glances DE just became a top armor killing army perhaps second to IG now, even better when you factor in Nightfigthing and going first. I may change my Wyches delivery system and maybe their numbers but I will still definitely use them in most if not all my list. I suggest to those who claim Wyches are no longer viable to give them another try and just remove the notion of them killing in droves as Incubi of 5th ed would. Just my honest assessment.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 12:15

@beans: fnp vs ap1-2?? Maybe i'm mistaken, but i do believe that you cant do that. Against power weapons...well against power swords and most of the pw, yes, but i think a thunderhammer has ap2, and because of that you cant roll on it. As does a halberd(??)
@beans: i really, really dont like quoting in almost any way you can imagine. This isnt aggressive, but i dont want to demonstrate what would be, for i dont want to get banned out Very Happy

@GAR yes, you contribute 1/2 or 1/3 of your unites to kill 10 tacs in 2 turns, where as, most of our enemies math-wise, usually need 1 squad per our vehicles to make us lose mobility in practically one turn. Counter to that is positioning, but there isnt always a building providing complete LOS block.

@Ichiyo im glad it works for you, but in 5th ed, i didnt have to worry about charging my 9 wyches in to 10 marines at all...well minus the ones that may or may not have fallen to liqui. My biggest opponents were orks and BA/BT. Againt them, i had to drop a unite of wyches for a unite of incu to do the job, so 2 incu, 2 wyches. The rest was misiles from RWJF and VRB, disints and voidlances. Now, my incu have a chance to survive overwatch, but wyches, what wound is 80% kills for 5+ fnp. But my greatest downfall is the unreliable charge distance. While usually i could move 12, disembark 2, run 3-4, lets say 3 and charge 6 that is 23" in average. Minimum is 21, max is 26. Now move 6, disembark and move 6, then charge ave 7, that is 19" minimum 14", max 24".
5 to 10 difference in my range is making me cut my wrists. Nothing changed? Well...

Flamers will be a big problem as well, especially SoB - ave 3 flamers/ squad.

I'm not saying we didnt become good at killing vehicles...MEQ+SoB are equiped with frag and krak for free. I'm not saying we arent good at cc...MEQ can be taken down with support, SoB dont charge. But we have the most powerful gun in the game, Voidlance, that needs 3 to glance a lr, 4+ is pen. No one else has this firepower. Sadly, everyone else can bring more gunz, what we back up with dark lances. But since we can glance a tank to death with krak, what others automatically have, we dont need lances. Not even the void lance. We just need Scourges to bring HWB for range, wyches to bring HWG for melee, and we need to shoot and hide, for we cant take on an enemy head on.

Truth be told, maybe you have a meta that doesnt need a lot of change to the list, but here, where we have all possible variations, it is hard.

Just a comparison to wyches assaulting x unit: in 5th, i could charge a jetseer council with wyches, tieing them up for 2 rounds, when in the 1st, my incu massacred guardians and then gone to take care of the jetseers. Now, if you charge a jetseer unite with wyches...well lets say a 9lock+1seer for easier math. From 9 locks, 7 is destructolock, 7d3 hits...want to guess who will win cc?

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wilku
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 13:44

@Enfernux wrote:
@beans: fnp vs ap1-2?? Maybe i'm mistaken, but i do believe that you cant do that. Against power weapons...well against power swords and most of the pw, yes, but i think a thunderhammer has ap2, and because of that you cant roll on it. As does a halberd(??)
why? you can't roll Fnp ONLY against Instant Death wounds. (ok, TH inflicts ID on most of our models, but still - AP has nothing to do with it

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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 14:02

@Enfernux wrote:


@GAR yes, you contribute 1/2 or 1/3 of your unites to kill 10 tacs in 2 turns, where as, most of our enemies math-wise, usually need 1 squad per our vehicles to make us lose mobility in practically one turn. Counter to that is positioning, but there isnt always a building providing complete LOS block.


Truth be told, maybe you have a meta that doesnt need a lot of change to the list, but here, where we have all possible variations, it is hard.

Point 1. I run msu style list. I have lots of vehicles and units to contribute, and the lose of one or two units is not an issue. I have more to do the same thing with.

Point 2: I get to play against several of the top ranked players here in the US in my local meta. I don't really see how your meta can be much more difficult than my own.
All that aside, local meta is a red herring argument. Good players are good players and our skill is shown by being able to deal with anything we could see on the table.

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Ichiyo1821
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 14:59

Unless you are charging a blob squad I must say that Overwatch against Wyches are overrated. Again we have the tricks to overcome that unlike most armies. Most often than not you have a Haemonculus with your Wyches. If you are so afraid of overwatch this is what I did. When you disembark, move your Heamonculus from your unit. Shoot separately with both the Wyches and the Liquifier gun. Then charge with the Haemonculus first before the Wyches, now your opponent is stuck between deciding to fire on your HQ or fire later on the Wyches. If he fires on the Haemi then your Wyches get in without getting shot. If he risks not shooting at your HQ to shoot at your Wyches and your Haemonculus makes it into combat, he will no longer be able to shoot as your target is already in close combat. If he issues a challenge then give up your Haemonculus who is useless anyway in combat freeing your IC and your Hekatrix. Again I've just had 2 games in 6th edition but aside from flyers I see minor changes in DE gameplay bar WWp lists.

Meta gaming is important yes but imo it is always better to play to your army strengths then prey on your enemies weakness second. As DE my gameplan is simple, attack the ones that can either inflict damage to me the most(mostly the fast units), prey on the easy units as fast as I can so later on I can gangbang on whatever is left or the unit I tried to avoid until I know I now have the advantage over. DE actually can make damn good all-comers lists with the amount of AP2 weapons and amount of torrent fire we have thus making assaults easier or atleast gives us the chance to even the playing field. So what if we use 2 units against one, you are forgetting that our units costs lest than say your average Marine. In our current meta we have all sorts of armies, from the north we have a strong representation of Gk, IG, Spacewolves and Blood Angels, in the middle we have every single Marine configuration available and lastly from the South we have mostly Xenos armies and I go against all of them regularly. I use the same list I use on casual games and tournaments and I just adjust to the scenarios but the core principle of how I use my DE is the same. Fight dirty, move in fast, move out faster.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 15:14

+1

very clever Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 03:30

with wyches, can you throw a grenade(say a land raider) and then assault another vehicle(say a land speeder) both times using the haywire grenades?

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 04:03

i have a question. are you able to throw haywire grenades at a vehicle, then assault it and re-use the grenades in an assault?

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 04:16

@Eggshall123 wrote:
i have a question. are you able to throw haywire grenades at a vehicle, then assault it and re-use the grenades in an assault?

Yes.

Actually, remember that you can only throw ONE grenade at a vehicle (or at anything). But after that, yeah, you can still use them in the assault.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 04:21

@Eggshall123 wrote:
with wyches, can you throw a grenade(say a land raider) and then assault another vehicle(say a land speeder) both times using the haywire grenades?

No, because you can only assault the same vehicle that you shot at (throwing a grenade is shooting). If you can reach both of them though, you can declare the land speeder a 'secondary target' and assault both. And you should, since a) Neither of those vehicles can fire Overwatch at you, and b) If you're going to be using haywire grenades you won't need the extra attack anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 01:12

ok thanks. an i was also wonering, i couldnt find it in the rules but can they throw grenades while in vehicles?

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 03:55

@Eggshall123 wrote:
ok thanks. an i was also wonering, i couldnt find it in the rules but can they throw grenades while in vehicles?

Sure, but remember: only *one* grenade.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 01 2012, 19:56

I haven't read 6th yet, I'm still trying to play a 1000pts 5th game in under two days, but it seems my primary use of wyches (to fly over in raiders, jump out, and assult the Tau below) will not be effective! affraid I have painted and assembled 2 units of Wyches and 2 of Kabalites, so does anybody know how I can annihilate Tau without sitting around and getting killed by firewarriors? Sad

I can only play against Tau and sometimes Deamons, so I've never had to face a dreadnought... are Haywire Grenades any good against Hammerheads? What about suits? Question

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02 2012, 09:17

you need resilient units than can close fast with tau. units of jetbikes are brilliant for this. bladevane firewarriors and kroot, assualt them into the big guns and blaster/melta the hammerheads from behind. tau only really work if they can keep you at range and bikes totally deny them this
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02 2012, 12:21

Ok, thanks! I will try that... Only problem is that Jetbikes aren't a troop choice... and they are quite expensive pointswise, I haven't played any really big battles yet because we are still slow with the rules.

Plus, last time i tried some Reavers they didn't work... what about BeastMasters? Scourges? I heard Scourges are good for firepower, and fast. I read somewhere that Mandrakes aren't that good at Close Combat, but practically anything is better than Tau at Assault

EDIT:
Oh! and 'Double Layers' when they get you to assault the 1st unit, you wipe them out and then they wipe you out in thier shooting phase...

*Sigh* colour functions... i give up!

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02 2012, 12:53

Reavers are fantastic this edition. Check out the battle reports in my signature if you need some inspiration. Smile

If you want to assault shooty units with wyches you can always try and use them to screen each other against overwatch (Of course against Tau getting to transports with wyches near them without being blown to pieces may prove difficult).

For example:

I have a squad of 10 wyches and a squad of 5 wyches, both in transports. I disembark and move them in such a way that the squad of 5 is screening the squad of 10 from the unit they wish to assault. I can now shoot with both squads if I wish (although the enemy will get some cover saves). After shooting the squad of 10 charges through the gaps in the squad of 5. Overwatch is resolved before the unit is moved, as there is a intervening unit between the firer and the target, the charging squad of 10 wyches gets a 5+ cover save (4+ with the cheap phantasm grenade launcher the wyches have access to). Now that the target is locked in combat charge the remain squad of 5 wyches into the combat (who won't get overwatched, as the unit is has already fired overwatch).

The squad sizes of the wyches can vary depending on what you are charging.

Hope that helps. Wink


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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02 2012, 13:05

are you just allowed to rush through another of your own units ? I didn't know that, it looks quite handy ^^
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02 2012, 13:12

I'll have a go... would it work for suits?

P.S I think so... Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02 2012, 21:02

Overwatch isn't that bad. The biggest problem is getting to assault range. Wyches die when they are shot at and they die when their Raider goes boom (as it inevitably does). Two or three might survive, but two or three wyches aren't going to assault anything.

I'm afraid haywire grenades won't do anything to their suits. They are fantastic though.

I would say, use Night Shields, measure distances carefully, and try to attack simultaneously with several units so that even if some of them die, some other ones make it. Tau are rubbish in close combat.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02 2012, 21:17

Yeah I have to agree GW forgetting the open topped S3 rule is huge (I'm convinced they just forgot it).

Now that we take S4 hits from exploding transports things get messy. It was bad enough before losing 50% of you wyches but 66% is just plain harsh!

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Barking Agatha
Wych
Barking Agatha

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Join date : 2012-07-02

Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 02 2012, 21:20

@Barking Agatha wrote:
Tau are rubbish in close combat.

Actually, change that to 'Tau Fire Warriors' are rubbish in close combat. Be careful of the Battlesuits, as they can be almost impossible to kill!

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 4 I_icon_minitime

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