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 Wyches are awesome now!

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Freelancer411
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 22:54

note unless there talos or beasts....love how people dont see the other side of the coins and if you actually read further on using allies bringing the farseer and seer council which is a nasty nasty bog down or cc control unit into the mix makes assaulting a good choice for them. There is alot of negativity because the experience in 6th so far has been bad with straight DE dex. There are ways to deal but once you play a few games with your DE you will see.....I'd actually bet on it that you will agree with my evaluation....I am not the only one that sees this in this new edition....the goal is to not drive people away but to come up with new ways to adapt I.E. using fortune to make our raiders and venoms less squishtastic. So this is a positive post not a negative one just cause i shared a negative expierience with my 5th edition army....which most of you will have when you go to play you gotta find the work arounds dude.
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 22:55

Definitely I will always give PGL to my Hekatrixes/Syrens. Stealth while assaulting units within 8"? I'm in.

Do you think that going full speed to the enemy deployment zone with our wyche's raiders is too dangerous? it's better to try and get there in 2 turns??

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Freelancer411
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 23:02

the idea was to basically shove my army right down there throat! send everything first turn besides the ravagers flat out get as close to them as posible without being in melta range on there turn.....your gonna take alot of fire but thats why everything is doubled or quadrupled up. You fire with the ravagers to attempt to blow up a transport to give something for your brides to sink there teeth into


Have you considered turbo boosting your transports behind cover (preferably denying LOS)? The new rules on setting up the board should allow for this quite reliably. Since wyches aren't able to assault turn 1 now anyway, how about not inviting your opponent to shoot them off the board before they get to do their primary job.

And to be clear, their primary job now is to glance vehicles to wreckage. They do this well.

When I could I would this is a must even in 5th....but it wouldnt matter because the bloodbrides would not perform to there points anymore ive taken the same squad and playtested with 5th rules vs 6th and they arent worth the investment id use them as bog down elite units or to wipe units completely. With the way assaults are now if you lose combat that modifier no longer causes wounds but just a straight modifier to leadership and often the wyches would lose that first round cause i would try to multi-assault so i didnt wipe them out on my turn... also the 22-24 inch rapid fire range of space marines in razorbacks / rhinos they often can position themselves unless it is a straight wall / mountain / obstruction you could used to judge by 16 inches they now have an 8 inch difference in editions so our little paper airplanes are made out of tissue paper now.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 23:24

Played my second 6E game yesterday with my WWP list.

10Hellions
10 bloodbrides (razorfails)
9 BLoodbrides (razorflails) in a Raider with Flickerfield, Night Shield and Shock Prow and Chain Snares
5 Incubi
10 Warriors w/Splinter Cannon
10 Warriors w/Splinter Cannon
Archon w/ Huskblade, SoulTrap Shadowfield, Combat Drugs and WWP
Ravager w/ 3 Dissies and Flicker Field/Night Shield


Was playing another DE player who runs a footslog shooting list w/ Eldar Attachment
2 Talos (Loaded up on shooting options)
Wraithlord
Farseer and 3 Warlocks
5 Sniper Scouts
2 10 man kabalite warrior squads
10 Incubi w/ Drazhar


We were testing some things, so I didn't play optimally to see how certain situations would play out.

He seized the initiative and shot one of my 10 man warrior squads to 5 remaining. And popped the Syrabite out of my second 10 man squad.
The rest of his shooting bounced of Nightshields and Cover Saves from Night Fighting, he was not in range ot assault.

My Archon and 9 Bloodbrides hopped out of their Raider, dropped a WWP next to one of his talos, and assaulted Drazhar and his Incubi. Drazhar accepted Challenge. Archon took 0 wounds and Drazhar took 2. Wyches killed 5 Incubi and lost 2.

Meanwhile my Dissies from the Ravager dropped all three of his warlocks, the Darklance on my Raider put a damage on his Talos, and my Splinter Fire killed a different talos.


Turn 2 the Wraithlord joins the combat with the Wyches and Incubi. Drazhar pops the Shadowfield on the second save, but takes his final wound in the process, Our HQs killing each other for a simultaneous first blood. (Thats right, Drazhar and Archon went to an even fight). He shoots my 5 remaining warriors down to 1, who hangs on to his objective like a boss and keeps fighting.

On the other side of the field, his talos and splinter fire do well and knock that 9 man squad of warriors down to 4. The ravager gets assaulted and popped by the Farseer w/ Witchblade.

My 4 warriors hold their objective and put another wound on the Talos. My 1 warrior remaining (with his Splinter Cannon!) Mows down 4 of his warriors and holds his ground. My Hellions, 10 Bloodbrides, and Incubi all come from reserves through the WWP. Hellions Mow through the rest of that 10 man warrior squad with Splinter Pods. The Bloodbrides shoot the last talos and pop his final wound with the Syren's Blast Pistol.

My wyches finish off his Incubi swiftly, but are put to the blade by the Wraithlord.


Turn 3 went swiftly downhill, His farseers surived to start heading toward my remaining units. His Wraithlord rushed my Hellions and Cleaved out half of them. His remaining warrios claim an objective (giving him a 2:1 lead on me). And on my turn I Finish his Wraithlord, and find myself left with Hellions about to run off the edge of the board, 1 Squad of Wyches, and 1 Warrior w/ Splinter Cannon holding an objective. I concede the game to him and we agree to end the game with him at 8 VP and me at 5.

All in all, Archon w/ huskblade performed well despite being against an opponent with a 2+ save and Eternal warrior. Without EW it would have gone very differently.

The farseer bring a lot of destructive power and is deceptively strong in melee. I should have rushed all in on the flank with the farseer and denied his flank.

in DE vs DE the warrior squad that shoots first wins.

Bloodbrides are brutally powerful in CC. And Overwatch is highly unreliable, and a 5+ cover save brings things down to 1 or 2 losses at most.

Haywire grenades were 43 points that I wasted against a his list.

Dissies are my new best friend in this edition. Terminators? Ravager w/ Dissies. Drazhar? Ravager w/ Dissies. Anything else 2+ or a Monstrous Creature? Ravager w/ Dissies.
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Freelancer411
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 23:57

Dissies are my new best friend in this edition. Terminators? Ravager w/ Dissies. Drazhar? Ravager w/ Dissies. Anything else 2+ or a Monstrous Creature? Ravager w/ Dissies.

I agree your gonna see alot more 2+ on the board and alot less tanks and they have enouh shots to threaten the paper airplanes flying above the battlefield.

Eh the blood brides were the hotness now there just ok....that nerf on fnp and the hit to leadership in a lost combat is pretty ugly for them for how much that unit costs.... but i haven't tried using them in combination with fortune from a farseer that might make them playable and just as deadly as they were in 5th even against termies id just lose the syren and agonizers and take them as 9 with flails and haywire grenades... def a good choice mixed with fire dragons. The biggest hit i think goes to our troop section though cause we cant get them around the board as well, but once again a farseer may make this possible.
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 00:26

I read on one of the other topics another small idea which may help wyches with snapfire: not so much because losing MASSIVE parts of your unit more preventing you contacting their unit.

Using a small-ish unit of Reaver Jetbikes charging the same target as the Wyches should see the wyches more than likely have the assault range to reach combat whilst the RJBs take the shooting with better Toughness and 4+ Cover Save (Jink + Skilled Riders) if they moved in the movement phase.

edit: PS. I loved for your first post Agatha - I think I'm gonna have a crack at copying this tactic at some point haha! lol!

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Chaeril
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 00:59

@dangerous beans wrote:
Using a small-ish unit of Reaver Jetbikes charging the same target as the Wyches should see the wyches more than likely have the assault range to reach combat whilst the RJBs take the shooting with better Toughness and 4+ Cover Save (Jink + Skilled Riders) if they moved in the movement phase.

Excellent thinking!
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 01:18

Tiresias wrote:
@dangerous beans wrote:
Using a small-ish unit of Reaver Jetbikes charging the same target as the Wyches should see the wyches more than likely have the assault range to reach combat whilst the RJBs take the shooting with better Toughness and 4+ Cover Save (Jink + Skilled Riders) if they moved in the movement phase.

Excellent thinking!
Answers instead of whining? I LOVE IT Twisted Evil
This is a good solution AND another reason why RJB's are pretty hot now.

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 01:28

Tiresias wrote:
Excellent thinking!

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
Answers instead of whining? I LOVE IT

Aw gee thanks guys & girls!! I'm all shy now...! Embarassed I can't really take credit for this idea - I noticed it on one of the other threads but it wasn't really picked up on by the replies after. I'm merely the messenger! Wink

Reavers are certainly shaping up to be very versatile indeed in this new edition: I'm glad that I have 12 of them at the moment - two units of 6 or a unit of 9 (with a DOOOOOOOMED Farseer) + a unit of 3 (for the wych support!) are in order I think Razz

Also...

@ Mnemonic - thanks writing up the report! Fascinating to see the mirror match in 6th and how certain units compare! I particularly liked seeing the Incubi vs Wych / Archon vs Drazhar matchup! Fascinating stuff! Its looking like Farseers on bikes are going to be really hot stuff for our lists! Lots of good ideas about them combined with Reavers, Doom, Singing Spears and jetbike assault hops... Very Happy


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Chaeril
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 01:32

@dangerous beans wrote:
Aw gee thanks guys!! I'm all shy now...! Embarassed I can't really take credit for this idea - I noticed it on one of the other threads but it wasn't really picked up on by the replies after. I'm merely the messenger! Wink

Reavers are certainly shaping up to be very versatile indeed in this new edition: I'm glad that I have 12 of them at the moment - two units of 6 or a unit of 9 (with a DOOOOOOOMED Farseer) + a unit of 3 (for the wych support!) are in order I think Razz

None too harsh, as a) I adore speed and b) Reavers are right now my favourite unit in 40K, so extra reasons to field many are always welcome Twisted Evil

(OT: I do need to (finally) say, however, 'guy' is somewhat off the mark, if you check my profile silent )
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 01:57

I'm not sure I share the sentiment of the original post. I think wyches (not bloodbrides, necessarily) took a big hit with 6th edition. Mainly when dealing with the Overwatch shenanigans.

Maybe it's because my local meta is really shooter-heavy, but wyches have been getting ripped apart by Overwatch. Overwatch wasn't meant to be a game-changer because of the low BS associated with it. However low the BS, the fact remains that Wyches don't usually have the numbers, the toughness, or the armor saves to withstand any kind of shooting (using my 5th edition wych squad in raiders). Their only salvation lies in Feel No Pain,

Foot-slogging a large group may be viable (and I might try an earlier posts idea of using another unit to run interference, though I'm not sure about using more expensive units as bullet shields for standard troop choices), but large groups of Wyches were normally delivered via Webway Portal. FAQ for 6th edition has nerfed this, disallowing the Wyches to assault in the turn that they come on the board. Without the WWP, it's a long, lonely road to hoof it on foot when wyches have severe allergic reactions to bullets. The night-fighting rules may help make up for this by allowing more rounds of defensive advance and cover saves. However, it's a random possibility.

The Haywire grenades are really cool now, but enemies now focus fire on Wyches with them. Also, since Overwatch is also used by the people inside the vehicle (if open-topped or having fire points). They are a great suicide unit to pressure shots, but I don't know if they are worth as many points as authentic tank-hunter units (particularly the Scourge in 6th).
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 02:10

I love the idea of reavers helping out the wyches! The only thing is i'm not sure I want to risk a 22poinr models in assult to take the heat off my 12 point home girls. Im wondering if you could use the reavers as a sort of moble cover for the gals during the charge. Maybe move them right infront of the wyches before they charge slap a PGL on the fly honeys and now they have a 4+ cover save. With their 48inch range it would be easy to do it think. You could even vaneblade the unit being charge at the same time. Thoughts?
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 02:16

Oh god Tiresias - I am sorry! You are indeed a Hekatrix Syren - I hadn't realised! TBH in English when you address people as guys its never meant as a single sex only comment although of course its easily interpreted as that! I've edited my post regardless now to make sure Wink

Yeah Reavers are totally savage now! I liked them before in 5th but found that they died a little too easily to focused Rapid Fire weaponry (AP5 was a pain for when not turbo-boosting), the jink save and change to skilled riders has made them totally nuts! And thats before you couple them with any Jetbike riding Farseer hooliganry!

I think that RJBs could provide other boons to Wyches too: in the turn prior to your grand assault plan, the RJBs can help by turbo boosting over any unit (lets call it Unit B) that would otherwise lend future assault support to the target unit (Unit A) that you are hoping to get the Wyches into. After the movement phase, shooting could then finish off Unit B or (preferably) cripple it, during this 'prior turn' the RJBs Assault Skip (the 2D6 move in assault phase for RJBs that you get even after turboboosting!) behind cover/out of assault range of any other enemy units. In the following turn either Unit A will still be nearby ready for Wych/RJB assaulting or it will be attempting to make a tactical retreat along with the remains of Unit B. This means that the Wyches can then chase unit A whilst the RJBs either Turbo Boost over unit B or simply assault it and so gain a Pain Token - preferably then considolidating back behind/into cover afterwards.

Sorry for the complex description - it probably makes little sense but I'm just trying to outline two things:

1. Forward planning: setting up your following turn for assaults / wiping out enemy units via the movement and assault phases
2. Gaining the Pain - getting tokens onto your combat units which will likely require them more than your shooters.
3. Prolonging life: if your opponent chooses to retreat Unit A and B because your Wyches and RJBs pose too much of a threat then you can use this to your advantage: Heavy Weapons in Unit A could only then be Snap Shot and you could attempt to cut off their retreat with your shooting support, a flyer or another assault unit.

Basically - you can use your opponents obsession of focusing on your wyches against him by punishing him through other means: units DO NOT have to 'make back' their points in game for them to have been worthwhile - sometimes using them to lure, bait or manipulate your opponents movements (and so set up your advantage) is a MUCH better plan than simply running them straight at him.

I think I need to lay off the whiskey and call it a night now... Rolling Eyes

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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 02:32

@dangerous beans wrote:
I read on one of the other topics another small idea which may help wyches with snapfire: not so much because losing MASSIVE parts of your unit more preventing you contacting their unit.

Using a small-ish unit of Reaver Jetbikes charging the same target as the Wyches should see the wyches more than likely have the assault range to reach combat whilst the RJBs take the shooting with better Toughness and 4+ Cover Save (Jink + Skilled Riders) if they moved in the movement phase.

edit: PS. I loved for your first post Agatha - I think I'm gonna have a crack at copying this tactic at some point haha! lol!

Yes! I definitely think assaulting with multiple units is the way to go in 6th, and DE do very well at pulling this off. Plus, it is very much in character for multiple units to pounce on the enemy as soon as they appear vulnerable.

I had not considered Reavers as a "first in" unit to absorb Overwatch fire because of my love for Bladevanes. But you're right - their T4 and 4+ jink save means they will sustain less than 50% of the damage that wyches would have sustained, they can soften the enemy up with their (limited) shooting first, and as bikes they get Hammer of Wrath (S3 AP - but every little bit helps).

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
I love the idea of reavers helping out the wyches! The only thing is i'm not sure I want to risk a 22poinr models in assult to take the heat off my 12 point home girls. Im wondering if you could use the reavers as a sort of moble cover for the gals during the charge. Maybe move them right infront of the wyches before they charge slap a PGL on the fly honeys and now they have a 4+ cover save. With their 48inch range it would be easy to do it think. You could even vaneblade the unit being charge at the same time. Thoughts?

Excellent idea, should be very doable. It does raise the question of which models are considered "closest" against a bladevane attack - the ones closest to where the RJBs started their turbo boost, or to where they ended it (since that is when you work out the attack)? If the former, this could easily be set up so that the bladevane attack does not even remove models close to the wyches.

@dangerous beans wrote:
RJBs Assault Skip (the 2D6 move in assault phase for RJBs that you get even after turboboosting!)

One note: Turbo Boost still retains this prohibition against executing "any other voluntary action" after they Turbo-boost, which pretty clearly rules out the assault phase jump.


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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 02:34

@beans: by wiping out models in the shooting phase, preping for asault, you further reduce the safe distance.
@beans: PFP is a waste for 5+
@beans: one bear: an IG platoon will make the better of your "assault"
@Allandrel: so a 22pts model is better to absorbe overwatch than a 10pts model??

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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 02:45

@Enfernux wrote:
@Allandrel: so a 22pts model is better to absorbe overwatch than a 10pts model??

A marine firing a bolter on Overwatch will cause an average of 0.22 wounds to a charging wych (assuming no cover).
A marine firing a bolter on Overwatch will cause an average of 0.08 wounds to a charging RJB.

Mathhammer-wise, you'll lose fewer points of RJBs than of wyches.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 02:50

2.22 dead wyches
1.11 dead RJB
50% less for OVER 2* pts...no

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 03:36

@Enfernux wrote:
2.22 dead wyches
1.11 dead RJB
50% less for OVER 2* pts...no

With no basis in how many shots at what BS and with what weapons this means nothing.

You seem to like simply dismissing any idea presented in many of these threads...

PFP changes to the first token is a mixed bag. Yes it's now 5+ but it's against most hits now. The loss in FC means little thanks to the high I we have already.

As for the bike idea, with a 4+ or better cover combined with FNP and true T4 they should absorb many more then the above. That said... 22 points is not over 2 times 12 as you seem to suggest

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 03:37

@Freelancer411

If your Venoms and Raiders have Night Shields as you say then space marines can *not* move 6 inches and rapid fire you at 24". They can move 6" and fire 18".

You're allowed to measure at any time now, so stay more than 24" away from them and they'll never be in range. Of course a missile launcher will still kill you, but it always did.


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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 03:44

ok
haem pfp token for wyches. 10 wyches vs 10 vets
assault roll 7, lets say 8 was rolled.
10*2*1/6*3/6=1.66 from lasgun adn we all know they will have better, so for unsaved: 0.55 probability of assault is 50%
rjb with supposed pfp token, 10 r vs 10 vets
10*2*1/6*2/6=1.11 from lasgun, again, they will have better. 0.37 probability.
this is a 1.49 increase. 10*1.49 is 14.9, not 22

wyches with no pfp token:
10*2*1/6*3/6=1.66 dead
rjb with no pfp token:
10*2*1/6*5/6=1.22 dead

1-2 vs 1-2, in pts 1.36 so a rjb sacrificial would be 13 pts.

THIS IS ONLY LASGUN! Now think of bolter, bolter, bolter, bolter, bolter, bolter, bolter, ow and pulse rifles as well. Maybe even gauss rifles? bio rifles? or idk what are they called in nids. 6+ armor 5+ fnp is a nono for assault.

yes, i have been diasgreeing with meny if the ideas, for we can only assault vehicles, without incu, incu are expensive. Vehicles with wyches, who will die, for assaulting vehicles does not mean they are tied in combat.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 04:11

I don't know how your doing the math here... it makes no sense to me...

10 las gun shots with BS4 at RJB who have at least a 4+ cover save (could even be better) with T4 and FNP works out to 0.74 unsaved wounds on them...

the same 10 las gun shots vs T3 wyches with FNP is 1.85 unsaved wounds...

and assuming i am charging i can shoot you first... 9 splinter pistols inflict 3 wounds before saves (so 3 dead guardsman or 1 dead MEQ) along side a grenade which will potentially up this damage. - which means less overwatch back...

Talking of overwatch... those same 10 lasgun shots at BS 1 are a joke... vs the RJB we get 0.18 unsaved wounds and the wyches take 0.46 unsaved wounds...

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Enfernux
Wych
Enfernux

Posts : 823
Join date : 2012-05-31
Location : Hungary, Szeged

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 04:39

Massaen: with a 4+ cs, you wont be shooting and charging me.

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Gobsmakked
Rumour Scourge
Gobsmakked

Posts : 3274
Join date : 2011-05-14
Location : Vancouver, BC

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 04:44

I think the RJB idea would be worth trying. My understanding is that the defenders may also elect to save their Overwatch for the second attacking squad, allowing the bikes to get in unmolested anyway(?)
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Sendreavus
Hellion
Sendreavus

Posts : 36
Join date : 2012-06-27

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 04:50

Units tied up in combat cannot overwatch though.
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Allandrel
Kabalite Warrior
Allandrel

Posts : 211
Join date : 2012-02-25
Location : Ohio

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 17:49

@Enfernux wrote:
Massaen: with a 4+ cs, you wont be shooting and charging me.

RJB's have Jink and Skilled Rider, which means they have a 4+ cover save if they moved at all during their cover save and can still shoot and charge without penalty.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 3 I_icon_minitime

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