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 Wyches are awesome now!

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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 00:34

i just want to through my two bits in to this topic, playing nids i have a good idea how pscologicly effective a swarm of T3 units can be to some players. as a DE player(still tweeking but got a grasp) i understand trying to deal with so much gunplay wreaking your game. i had a lileth and a small band of wyches cut down several units of Space Wolves. i also had that same unit die turn 1 before they can do anything. i would keep ratio of 1:1 of wyches and warriors but if you got to cut points a wych still has a pistol ontop of her CC goods. a warrior only has a gun.

summary: if you gota choose a versatile unit go with wyches. that 2pts a model for a grenade, that thanx to 6ed is also a weapon against everything and specialized for mechs, is a far better choice. as i see it if u go wych hordes, 10 to a raider and drop grenades and pistol fire as you fly by.

and dont forget 2k games and you are allowed a second roster so thats alot of venom fodder if you prefer the smaller groups

i love your tactic(splinter in the back), but wyches should be charging units, espicialy with the new charge rules they can grab at 18"(providing you get box cars) and if you get snake eyes you get to re roll. so if you cant assault atleast that same 6-7 inches, some one needs new dice.

this is all IMO ofcourse,
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 01:49

Good points Forest - but I should add that the 'Splinter in the Back' tactic includes assaulting too: its just that you get a round of splinter cannon fire from the opposite Venom in the back of the unit you're about to charge: the 4-5" distance thing is in case the firepower from the disembarked wyches kills the nearest couple of enemies from you: you don't nerf yourself too badly see!

I might try this tactic with x4 wych units of 5 (shardnet + haywire grenades) in x4 Venoms with dual Splinter Cannons and perhaps Grisley Trophies in case the combats don't quite go to plan...

Back this up with either 2 solid 20 man warrior phalanxes or simply x2 ten man squads (plus Blaster & Splinter Cannon in raider ammo racks)

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forest90
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 02:19

its a new rule set and im just trying to ad my understandings. versatility is valubility. especialy if your not a hundred percent what your going to face. High initiative, precombat shooting&blast weapons, and a slaughter fest in cc. wyches are mostly a clean up crew. and at this amount of fire power should do someserious damage. flamers will be the big worry but fortune of the new wound allocation should reduce them. and only need to kill off a couple of lucky straglers.

i never disembark my whyches/warriors unless their in cover or finishing off a unit that passed its moral.and this would support that same idea.,
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 11:42

Can anyone confirm what the situation is with cover for shooting through units? Is it still 4+ or has it been nerfed to 5+?

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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 12:21

It's 5+ (p18)
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 12:51

@Deamon wrote:
It's 5+ (p18)

Okay, so if I screen my Wyches with beasts, the Khymerae get a 4++ if they are shot at and the Wyches get 5++. Might make them a bit more useful out of a WWP.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 13:04

Maybe its me, but i dont agree with the agoniser not doing anything so far. It killes wraithlords, avatars, da big nidz. But my incubi...the mass-murderers of my army, who's best move in a battle was to kill the 2+sv termies cant do it any more. Nore can i use the wwp tactic. And the grenades of pre-battle...
I see what you mean about the Kan Wall Killerz, who can tie up basically anything in cc until the rest of your army tries to demolish the opponents squads with surgical strikes, but the unreliable charge distance is my drawback. So now, i get to move 12", disembark, and assault a random number, usually 7" but lady average and dice god is watching. This means a 14-24" threat range, but 10" is a lot to get shot up at. Just one little screw-up, and blam, da ladíz be dead.

Taking away my armies super sayien power punch, giving only a Yamcha power punch instead - atleast that is how i feal it - and giving my slice-and-dice ladies a luck factor for may or may not being usefull is a big Magent Buu planet killer in the gut.

The haywire being so awesome vs any vehicle though is nothing to be sniffed at, its our pack'o'punch vs almost any mech army.
A 10 lady squad can glance a LR to death, but i could do this before 6th. Its only easier now.

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 13:59

I coded a little programm to have probabilities about the new charging system, and it's not as bad as I though ( I first forgot about the new sprinting rules actually ). This test has been made with 10000 rolls of 3 dices picking up the 2 biggest values.

Code:
 probability of having 2 -> 0.473%
 probability of having 3 -> 1.412%
 probability of having 4 -> 3.194%
 probability of having 5 -> 5.502%
 probability of having 6 -> 8.716%
 probability of having 7 -> 12.567%
 probability of having 8 -> 15.744%
 probability of having 9 -> 16.724%
 probability of having 10 -> 15.846%
 probability of having 11 -> 12.545%
 probability of having 12 -> 7.277%
which basically means, that there is a 10.5% chance of having less than 6ps
Being a little riskier, choosing 7ps charge will make a 19% change of loosing it and 8ps charge will make a 32% chance of loosing it.
It would seem that charging at 6ps is pretty safe ( even though it can happen loosing with the dices .... I hate it, why the hell could our units not moove on a normal terrain damnit ? -__-" ), 5ps is like veryyy safe, 7ps is a bit risky and everything more becomes russian roulette, especially for wyches.
The previous system was better on that point imo =(


Last edited by Fruz on Tue Jul 03 2012, 14:24; edited 1 time in total
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 14:23

@Fruz wrote:
I coded a little programm to have probabilities about the new charging system, and it's not as bad as I though ( I first forgot about the new sprinting rules actually ). This test has been made with 10000 rolls of 3 dices picking up the 2 biggest values ( which means there wasn't any triple 1 on 10000 rolls lol ).

and you roll 2d for charging, or 3d for charging in to cover, but losing the highest, so you should recalibrate Smile

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 14:26

I use the fleet rule, that's why there are 3 dices picking the 2 best ones, is that not the way it works now ?
Lemme 2 sec to use 2 dices to show how horrible the case "fleetless" is !

EDIT : here it comes :
Code:
 probability of having 2 -> 2.874%
 probability of having 3 -> 5.513%
 probability of having 4 -> 8.41%
 probability of having 5 -> 11.133%
 probability of having 6 -> 13.843%
 probability of having 7 -> 16.681%
 probability of having 8 -> 13.779%
 probability of having 9 -> 11.076%
 probability of having 10 -> 8.342%
 probability of having 11 -> 5.51%
 probability of having 12 -> 2.839%
so basically 25% of being < 6ps without sprinting
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 14:54

Got ninja'd on the post!

That is very interesting - nice work Fruz!

That 1st table is great for charging in open ground or for a unit that is not slowed by difficult terrain like beasts.

Your 2nd table is for a unit that doesn't have fleet but ignores difficult terrain like Reaver Jet bikes.

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Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....


Last edited by Grumpy Kwi on Tue Jul 03 2012, 15:00; edited 1 time in total
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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 14:57

charging through cover ( withotu sprint ) : basically the opposite of charging with sprinting

Code:
 probability of having 2 -> 7.388%
 probability of having 3 -> 12.457%
 probability of having 4 -> 15.741%
 probability of having 5 -> 16.507%
 probability of having 6 -> 15.875%
 probability of having 7 -> 12.497%
 probability of having 8 -> 8.895%
 probability of having 9 -> 5.53%
 probability of having 10 -> 3.358%
 probability of having 11 -> 1.332%
 probability of having 12 -> 0.42%

:'(
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 15:01

What is the coding on the latest table?

3 dice taking the lowest 2, without fleet or with fleet?

Remember "Fleet" only affects running and charging and it allows to re-roll one or all the dice.

Wyches would roll 3 dice, getting re-roll 1 or all the dice. That would be some fancy coding on your part, it gets complicated.

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@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 15:04

without fleet

basically, I generated 3 D6, I sort from biggest to lowest them and I pick 2 two first one => that drops the smallest.
It's equivalent to use 2 dices and re-roll one, it makes 3 dices dropping the lowest.

for charging through cover I just inverse the sort.
for charging without sprinting I use only 2 dices, sorting doesn't matter.

For charging through cover whith sprint, I don't know which order to consider with the dices, I d'ont have the book here ^^"
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 15:11

Sprinting = Fleet yes?

roll 3 dice

you get to re-roll the lowest roll or all of them or just 2 if you like but you still have to take the 2 lowest results.

This gets tricky when you consider rolling 2 dice or all 3 dice when you really tank it with three "1's" or something.

It really gets interesting - it will be a science eventually,

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@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 15:15

Maybe I just misread the rules, I'll give another look later today when I'm back home then, I'll edit the post or just post the new result.
And by sprinting, I mean fleet yep.
So basically, am I forgetting one dice ? If you reroll the lowest amongst 3 dices, it's like rolling 4 dices and ignoring the lowest and I can change that very easily.

EDIT : my calculation is correct assuming that if the rerolled dice is lower than what you previously had, which is better than the rule which is = take the rerolled dice no matter what the value is.
And was mixing fleet and sprint, all the calculations I made are for non psrinting units.
To take in consideration a sprinting phase with unit with fleet, it would mean adding a dice that can be rerolled.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Using wyches in 6th   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 20:07

Hi everyone.

I like wyches. I don't want to play an army of mostly kabalites with a few wyches supporting them, I want an army of mostly wyches. Unfortunately between the changes to disembarking, fleet, feel no pain, random charges, and overwatch I think a squad of 10 wyches is going to have a very difficult time making it to combat. It's not as if they were all that killy by themselves anyway. So I've been thinking about it.

Why don't I just get rid of the raider? For the cost of the transport you can almost get another ten wyches, and send them in on foot while screening them with Reavers and/or Hellions. As I see it, the enemy has two choices: either deal with the mob of wyches running toward him, thus leaving your shooty units free to shoot him up, or let them get close and suddenly find they're being swamped by wyches.

The Raider actually works somewhat against the wyches, since it's better off shooting from a distance and they want to get close. So you lose 6 inches (oo... err!) and a dark lance, but overwatch won't hurt 20 wyches as much as it will 10. What do you think?
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 20:35

And footslogging Wyches wouldn't die from explosion.

But you'd rely on 5+ cover and 5+ fnp. Look at Orks - their awesome mobs are still dying to RF easy enough. And Wyches are more fragile and more expensive.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 20:45

Wyches in this edition frees our AV contribution.

And that means a lot.
Before - we absolutely have to take maxed out Blaster Borns, triple Lance Ravager.
Yeah, Wyches are not that crazy AI, but they are OK.

What about wyches with good Heavy Support?
We can fully affored now things like triple Razorwings and Reavers, Bloodbrides.

Dont judge things in vacuum.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 21:00

I don't think we will be able to forgo lances and blasterborn entirely, but 4 x 5 wyches in a venom should definitely reduce the need for them. I am planning to still take the blasterborn in venoms (however good wyches are now, they can't shut down mech turn 1), but instead run the ravagers with disintegrators.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 21:29

@GAR wrote:
@IASGATG wrote:
>.> Seriously? How many times have assault marines or something similar deep striked or whatever next to your Ravagers, and you've just gone "Hmm, Melta bombs? Nah I'll ignore it and just sit here."

I'll agree that dropping a detachment of wyches onto an overconfident Dreadnaught will bag you a kill, probably, however they are by no means a replacement for actual anti-tank. They are purely a tar-pit.

I completely disagree with this.
Seconded, in my experience Wyches and Blood Brides were some of our most reliable AT units in 5th, I don't see how this would change in 6th.
@GAR wrote:


I have found wyches to be medicore at best against marines and worse still against terminators. I could never get enough agonziers or power weapons to make any real difference.

My own experience has been a bit different. Although I've found wyches to be mediocre, I've always found Blood Brides to be one of the most efficient units in our army. They've taken out mobs of 30 Ork boys, Squads of terminators, I recognise that they're up against it in 6th but I still believe they're a viable option.

@IASGATG wrote:
but to decide to fly wyches around on raiders to drop a 8" range grenade on a target instead of bringing a Ravager is madness.
I lol'd, but then I wondered if you were serious?

@Eldur wrote:
10 wyches surround a Land Raider full of terminators, wreck it with haywire glancing (then it doesn't explode Razz ).
What will Termies do in this edition? are they dead????? Please tell I don't have the rulz!!!
Any models that can't complete an emergency disembarkation are removes as casualties.
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Freelancer411
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 22:34

sry disagree.....6th has made assaulting a bad choice period for dark eldar unless its a talos or beasts. Lets look at my usual suspect 1500 list that i ran and enjoyed playing in 5th I have vids on youtube and battle reports of me playing this army and doing very very well with it. It got me 3rd overall at Jersey minicon and managed to place 2nd in a local tourney as well as being my go to fun list to play with friends.

4 groups of 5 warriors in venoms blaster, extra sc and night shields
2 groups of 9 bloodbrides with 3 razorflails syren with an agonizer haywire grenades in raiders with enhanced eathersails torment launchers and flicker fields
2 heamonculus with liquifier guns riding with the bloodbrides
3 ravagers with flickerfields

the idea was to basically shove my army right down there throat! send everything first turn besides the ravagers flat out get as close to them as posible without being in melta range on there turn.....your gonna take alot of fire but thats why everything is doubled or quadrupled up. You fire with the ravagers to attempt to blow up a transport to give something for your brides to sink there teeth into

It used to be that i could kill a group of terminators marines whatever by finishing them off on there turn the way us dark eldar do....more often than not the way the rules are now is you will lose combat and fall back and during there turn there gonna shoot the crap out of you. Unless wyches have fearless or stubborn they are really poor choice now....i even would do the heamonculous switch and would often have 3 or more pain tokens on each wych squad

movement you got a 4+ cover save most of the time, now its 5 up.

Guess what ?

Ran this list with 6th i was tabled turn 3 by an ultramarine player. All vehicles besides the ravagers were blown up by bolters, autocanons , heavybolters, assault cannons and lastly a few plasma. every single raider and venom was exploded by turn 2, 70% of my army died to being killed by explosions inside the vehicles turn 3 his sterngaurd and a drop pod dread killed my ravagers the rest of his army shot the remainder of my troops before i even killed 1 of his full units.

What did my kill total look like : 1 razorback a dreadnought and 3 marines.

In 5th all i needed was half my army to survive to either table or over contest my enemy with those bloodbrides.

I choked it up to bad dice so i rematched

tabled turn 5.... danced around him a bit but the same result applied. Never mind the new rule changes to assaulting with the way vehicles hull points work you will never get into range to assault with wyches regardless.... and when you do which i actually did you will lose a few before you get into combat i lossed 3 brides 1 of them with razorflails ( bad posistioning on my part ) to snap fire from a run of the mill marine squad with a plasma gun

This is perspective but heres how it works: we need to deliver our wyches to there lines the only 2 options are a portal or raider/venom/tantalus (tantalus being the best but most expensive choice both in points and $$)

A marine squad can now rapid fire you at 22-24 inches and more than likely explode your raider or venom doing the job for the enemy to kill your unit or bring it down in strength and even then they have 5+ save and 5+ fnp which is really.....not so good not to mention even a frag missile will more than likely do the job. Also if im reading this right you take your shots and resolve them at a hit basis so any shots left that didnt blow up the raider are resolved on the unit thats left. all it takes is 3 5s on the dice or 2 5s in necrons any 6 will auto glance so your wiped anyway and its done with.

So anything but a portal wont work anymore but the portal itself the way i have read it counts as having deepstruck so you cant assault.... so they are now in the open and are an easy KP for the enemy...

Also Overwatch.....anything besides incubi with a pain token, beasts or a talos do not have the survivability to deal with this change in the rules to assault.

So really dude when you play a few more games you will start seeing less vehicles if none at all eventually. Our speed is neglagable compared to how far units can rapid fire...and glancing ripping off hull points was the nail on the coffin for our raiders and venoms being a delivery system.

I feel you i loved wyches since 4rth and were allways a part of my forces...its sad to see them go. On the flip Beast masters and beasts are now the go to counter assault unit! so brushing those off is a nice change.

We will see though. I think the best lists for us will have eldar allies in the form of the farseer and seer council on bikes with gaurdians on bikes. Our ranged anti- tank is far superior to theres for the points ravagers are still the go to unit.

lets look at that btw while I am here.

405 farseer with runes, doom, fortune, on a bike with 5 council kitted 2 embolden 2 destructor 1 enhance
(remember warlocks with a farseer is still only counted as 1 HQ even though they are seperate units!)
205 6 gaurdian bikes 2 canons with a warlock singing spear embolden
205 6 gaurdian bikes 2 canons with a warlock singing spear embolden
135 5 warriors blaster raider dark lance night shields enhanced sails
135 5 warriors blaster raider dark lance night shields enhanced sails
100 2 heamonculus riding with your warriors to give them some survivability
105 ravager 3 dark lances
105 ravager 3 dark lances
105 ravager 3 disintegrators

1500

You now have the raiders being much more survivable because you can reroll the failed saves just make sure there within 6" of the farseer untill you find a nice perch spot to unload and camp and fire your blaster or whatever into there lines. Poison even if its from this small of a squad is still a boon with doom you can more than likely kill a monsterous creature. Your troops move fast and are space marines 3+ that have some large guns and have amazing mobility. You benefit from the eldar powers being battle brothers. So i dont see a downside I see this as a complete upgrade to the dark eldar having our goody goody brothers join us in the fight makes both the dex's much more dynamic Looking forward to seeing what we can do

At 1850+ add a few more warlocks, mind war and fire dragons as well as possible another heamonculus and liquifier guns with warriors in a raider this makes them actually usable with fortune protecting them!

Now in hindsight...........could fortune be used to make your wyches usable/Abusive? I think so I will test this out in a few games and let you know on this post! Off to game

thanks for reading!
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 22:42

Look, Freelance, I don't even have to read your entire comment to know that some of us, I especially, do not want your type of nagativity here. I read the first line and it appears that you are just dismissing other people's opinions. Be open minded, try using assault units. Adapt, try different things and stop trying to drive people away from DE, because that is what it seems like you are doing.
You are allowed to disagree, and I will not stop you, just please be less blunt and less condemning of everything. It would be greatly appreciated as others can make up their own opinions whether assault units are bad or not.

Thanks.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 22:49

i do like ont thing he mentioned. i did not realize warlocks counted as the same slot, thats a few extra edlar slipped in.
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exsquared
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Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 22:51

@Freelancer411 wrote:
the idea was to basically shove my army right down there throat! send everything first turn besides the ravagers flat out get as close to them as posible without being in melta range on there turn.....your gonna take alot of fire but thats why everything is doubled or quadrupled up. You fire with the ravagers to attempt to blow up a transport to give something for your brides to sink there teeth into

Have you considered turbo boosting your transports behind cover (preferably denying LOS)? The new rules on setting up the board should allow for this quite reliably. Since wyches aren't able to assault turn 1 now anyway, how about not inviting your opponent to shoot them off the board before they get to do their primary job.

And to be clear, their primary job now is to glance vehicles to wreckage. They do this well.
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Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! - Page 2 I_icon_minitime

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