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 Wyches are awesome now!

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Flayed_Heart_Kabal
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PostSubject: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 16:22

Look at the facts. Assault 2d6 with 1 reroll, Haywire grenades will wreck vehicles left and right, Dreadnaughts we hit normally now with haywires, not on 6s, and we can throw them before we assault. Seriously. I'm going to be rocking 3 squads of these girls all the time.

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Bugs_N_Orks
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 16:30

Do haywire grenades get their full effect when thrown? Cause if so wyche just became short range vehicle wrecking machines, then they get thier re-rollable 2D6 assault. Sounds pretty decent to me.
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Flayed_Heart_Kabal
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 16:36

Wyches are where it's at, i'm telling you.

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Sendreavus
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 17:19

You can only throw one grenade in the shooting phase per squad.

That being said however, yes they are awesome against vehicles and walkers. Just a bit less awesome when charging infantry.
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IASGATG
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 17:39

Man I do love charging T3 6+Sv units against a tank line. I never get shot to pieces or anything.
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 17:41

Wytches are great against vehicles now, but very much nerfed against infantry. They're still good for tying up terminators, tho (overwatch doesn't matter since TH/SS termies have no guns, and did that agonizer ever kill any to begin with?).

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IASGATG
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 17:51

>.> Seriously? How many times have assault marines or something similar deep striked or whatever next to your Ravagers, and you've just gone "Hmm, Melta bombs? Nah I'll ignore it and just sit here."

I'll agree that dropping a detachment of wyches onto an overconfident Dreadnaught will bag you a kill, probably, however they are by no means a replacement for actual anti-tank. They are purely a tar-pit.
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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 20:35

@IASGATG wrote:
>.> Seriously? How many times have assault marines or something similar deep striked or whatever next to your Ravagers, and you've just gone "Hmm, Melta bombs? Nah I'll ignore it and just sit here."

I'll agree that dropping a detachment of wyches onto an overconfident Dreadnaught will bag you a kill, probably, however they are by no means a replacement for actual anti-tank. They are purely a tar-pit.

I completely disagree with this.

I have found wyches to be medicore at best against marines and worse still against terminators. I could never get enough agonziers or power weapons to make any real difference.

However, the effect of haywire made them the best tank hunters our army ever had. Now, in my opinion, they are even better. It is absolutely nothing to get 3 or 4 glancing hits on a vehicle if you assault it.

My thought is I fundamentally disagree with wyches being the end all be all to deal with infantry. They were good at finishing off weakened units, but not very good at equal or greater numbers.

I realize I am in the minority in this way of thinking, but I have had good success in competitive play using them primarily this way. Once units are weakend, then they are viable to go into anti infantry mode.

in my opinion.

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IASGATG
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 20:39

I never said wyches were for fighting Marines/Terms. I merely said charging armoured lines with them does get them killed. Maybe at like turn 4/5, when their primary role has been filled, but to decide to fly wyches around on raiders to drop a 8" range grenade on a target instead of bringing a Ravager is madness.
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Maddness
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 21:02

its more that wyches can deal with tanks far more effectivly now that a tank has Hull points, and unlike a AT Vehical they won't be out of action from one lucky hit. Combined with some long range weaponary like a Ravenger or a Razorwing the Wyches can create a good scenario of kill one, suffer the other...

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 01:56

Also if I am reading the rules right (and i very well could be wrong on this) if you shoot your pistols before charging you still get the extra attack for having another cc weapon. So wyches could get inside 6 inches, throw a plasma grenade for a ap4 s4 blast shoot their pistols and still get three attacks on the charge.(I could very well be wrong on this, but iIcan't see anywhere where it ays firing your pistols means you don't get an extra attack from it if you fire it.)
Killing enough units so that they are nolonger in charge range could be a problem though.
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Firdeth
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 07:14

@GAR wrote:
My thought is I fundamentally disagree with wyches being the end all be all to deal with infantry. They were good at finishing off weakened units, but not very good at equal or greater numbers.

I realize I am in the minority in this way of thinking, but I have had good success in competitive play using them primarily this way. Once units are weakend, then they are viable to go into anti infantry mode.

I completely agree. I always used my Wyches to crack open vehicles and as tarpit for scary cc units, I never expected them to kill anything but their 4++ in CC meant they could survive for a very long time thus nicely tying up some units. If they did kill some models, great, but I never expected them to.
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 09:51

@Firdeth wrote:
@GAR wrote:
My thought is I fundamentally disagree with wyches being the end all be all to deal with infantry. They were good at finishing off weakened units, but not very good at equal or greater numbers.

I realize I am in the minority in this way of thinking, but I have had good success in competitive play using them primarily this way. Once units are weakend, then they are viable to go into anti infantry mode.

I completely agree. I always used my Wyches to crack open vehicles and as tarpit for scary cc units, I never expected them to kill anything but their 4++ in CC meant they could survive for a very long time thus nicely tying up some units. If they did kill some models, great, but I never expected them to.

+1 here. Scary units (TEQs or anything with PW) dreads and other vehicles for wyches (or Beasts). MEQs and GEQs for Incubi and Archon.

Now it will stay nearly the same:

TEQs: beasts, maybe wyches
Vehicles of all kind: wyches FTW!!! Ork's Kan Wall is dead tongue
AP3, AP2 combat units: wyches
MEQs, GEQs, (anything without many PWs): Incubi
MCs: Wracks

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 11:59

The new charging rules SUCKS definitely ( especially for wyches ).
2D6 means that on a bad roll, your wyches unit is just dead because you have like no saves and didnt wound anything.
Try to do that with more than 6ps distance if you think that's an advantage, I don't think you're gonna enjoy.
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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 19:57

I havn't seen it, but do units suffer any sort of penalty for charging through cover, other than the I1? Like, is their charge distance limited somehow?

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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 20:19

@Ruke wrote:
I havn't seen it, but do units suffer any sort of penalty for charging through cover, other than the I1? Like, is their charge distance limited somehow?

Yes, you determine charge range by rolling 3d6 and dropping the highest. Fleet still applies.
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 20:46

@GAR wrote:
...in my opinion.

I completely agree with everything you've said. If not used for tarpitting AT is the best option Wyches have - but they're pretty damn good at it.

Careful prediction: Haywire's gonna rule this Ed. (get your Scourges today!)

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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 20:50

@Raneth wrote:
Careful prediction: Haywire's gonna rule this Ed. (get your Scourges today!)

Glad I already bought extra Scourge weapons before this edition was released!
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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 20:54

I've never understood why a low cost troop unit like Wyches ever became such a fixation for so many players. It's just a light infantry unit with some neat special abilities, they're a great little utility unit, but why take them by the truck load? (IMO, one or two squads is ideal, while Raider/Venom borne Kabalites provide the bulk of your infantry.)

That being said, not really sure why people are saying they got "nerfed" either, since being able to take a 5+ FnP against power weapons and the like is hardly "nerfing" them. Nor do I think Snap Fire is going to make them evaporate either...
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 21:56

@Arrex wrote:
they're a great little utility unit, but why take them by the truck load?
I think that the answer Arrex is fluff... Having wyches tie up enemy elites is very apt - but the ability to deal with vehicles over slicing and dicing up infantry just seems a little wrong don't ya think? Not that it matters, I do agree with your's, GAR's, Raneth's and other over the role of wyches now. As for by the truck load - I think dynamically posed models and the idea of assault based DE meant wyches were solid troops in 5th and so people bought a loadda them (or like me where 20 came in the megaforce combined with the 2 boxes I was very kindly bought for christmas! Very Happy)

The question is going to be; what is their optimum setup? Units of 5 with haywire grenades and a shardnet/impaler should fulfill these criteria adequetely, however I would not rely on this unit to deal with a vehicle of 3 hull points or more (in 1 round obviously). Correct me if I'm wrong but vehicles always have a 'weapon skill' now regardless of whether they moved or not (it just increases if they moved).

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Chaeril
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 22:00

@Arrex wrote:
I've never understood why a low cost troop unit like Wyches ever became such a fixation for so many players. It's just a light infantry unit with some neat special abilities, they're a great little utility unit, but why take them by the truck load? (IMO, one or two squads is ideal, while Raider/Venom borne Kabalites provide the bulk of your infantry.)..

because they're the coolest gals around! That's why drunken

If 'ubertroops' was my thing, I would just buy myself some terminators of my own, save up on painting effort in the meantime... So bring on those gladiators! My IG will do the shooting, I am into DE for some real close slicing and dicing.
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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 22:14

@dangerous beans wrote:
I think that the answer Arrex is fluff... Having wyches tie up enemy elites is very apt - but the ability to deal with vehicles over slicing and dicing up infantry just seems a little wrong don't ya think? Not that it matters, I do agree with your's, GAR's, Raneth's and other over the role of wyches now. As for by the truck load - I think dynamically posed models and the idea of assault based DE meant wyches were solid troops in 5th and so people bought a loadda them (or like me where 20 came in the megaforce combined with the 2 boxes I was very kindly bought for christmas! Very Happy)

Yup, that's more or less how I wound up with 40 wyches as well.

Quote :
The question is going to be; what is their optimum setup? Units of 5 with haywire grenades and a shardnet/impaler should fulfill these criteria adequetely, however I would not rely on this unit to deal with a vehicle of 3 hull points or more (in 1 round obviously). Correct me if I'm wrong but vehicles always have a 'weapon skill' now regardless of whether they moved or not (it just increases if they moved).

Vehicles are easier to hit now. A non-walker vehicle that did not move (or that is immbolized) has WS 0, so you still hit it automatically. A non-walker vehicle that moved has WS 1, so everybody now hits it on a 3+. (Are there ANY models in 40k that attack at WS 1?)

Flyers that Zoomed cannot be assaulted at all. Flyers that Hovered are treated as Fast Skimmers, which means that they are assaulted exactly like other vehicles.

Walkers use their own WS, even when immobilized or being attacked with grenades. Hits are directed against their front armor normally (or rear armor if Immobilized) as before.

Note that this means that the Eldar Swooping Hawk Exarch Power "Intercept" now joins the Warp Spider Exarch Power "Surprise Assault" in being completely superfluous.
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 22:51

10 wyches surround a Land Raider full of terminators, wreck it with haywire glancing (then it doesn't explode Razz ).

What will Termies do in this edition? are they dead????? Please tell I don't have the rulz!!!

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 23:07

Ok cool beans! Glad to hear of others who semi-inadvertantly fell in love with the idea of forming a wych cult too haha!

I'm thinking, have the 5 man (girl?) wych squads in venoms, which deliver them far up in turn 1 to gain the 4+ cover (flickerfield nerf doesn't matter then) then turn 2 drop the wyches off.


In theory (for vs infantry) you could perform a 'splinter in the back' manouvre:
If you perform this action successfully on either flank, then the venoms can lay fire into the opposite enemy squad (on the other flank) that the wyches on that far flank will be assaulting: thus preventing the enemy models being reduced from the side nearest that corresponding wych unit.

EG. Venom A (and wych unit A) bombs it forwards 30" in turn 1 up the left flank whilst Venom B (and Wyches B) do the same on the right. Turn 2, Venom A aligns up a good LOS vs the enemy unit that Wych unit B will be assaulting. Venom B does the same in aiding Wych unit A. The Venom's fire into the enemy units on opposite flanks and provide the wyches with a greater chance of tar-pitting (less enemy attacks means less chance of losing the combat, failing morale and running) or even killing that enemy unit.

Of course if you manage get both wych units in close enough (I'd say 3 or 4" away) then it could be worth pouring their splinter pistol fire into the units they're about to charge: but only if close enough.

I could be wrong though, and this is perhaps an isolated situation (wyches shouldn't really be charging such targets and venoms should probably be firing at something else), but hey - tactics like this sometimes have a use once in a blue moon... Wink

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Chaeril
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches are awesome now!   Wyches are awesome now! I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 00:04

Might work! Smile

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