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Mnemonic
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PostSubject: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 06:00

WWP's are definately nerfed in 6E, this is not a discussion about that however. This is to theorize new tactics around WWPs in 6E, and how we can make effective use of them.

Ive spent all my money building up a WWP list, and have no intention of scratching everything to make a raiderspam or shooting list.

Now that said, WWPs still provide several advantages:

1) Extra table edge. A well placed table edge can be brutal on it's own. Not just for assaults but for positioning troops arriving from reserve.

2) Impassable Terrain. 3" of Impassable terrain can be a path blocker to lock out a portion of an enemies army. (Throw it between the assault and shooters, and go hit the shooters!)

4) One or two less turns walking on foot across the table, something many assault-centric (Tyranid, Orc) armies lack. Even with sustaining a few losses to shooting you are going to be far closer to full force when you finally can assault.




What I want to discuss here:

WWP Positioning in the new setting.
Should we put it in cover (woods? ruins? behind a rock? IN a building?)
What kind of troops should we send out of it? What should we walk in from the edge at the beginning?
How can we outfit our assault squads to be less squishy coming out of one?
Are people going to bother surrounding if we cannot assault out of it?
Can use of the new Fortifications slot enhance the use of Webway portals?
With overwatch, do we use our wyches for our anti-tank and use Ravagers to mow through terminators? (S5 AP2 Heavy 3!)
PGL's on everything in a webway?

What WWP deployment would you use on a table (assuming no terrain, because its impossible to guess terrain ahead of time) for each scenario now?

Is the Haemy going to be a necessary deployment method for FnP? Or is the Archon still viable?


As a side note: With the ability to challenge, Archons with a Huskblade/CCW and Soul Trap have become the ultimate HQ hunter in our list. AP3 6 attacks on assault, if they fail one wound they are gone and the Archon is S6 (S8 if you got the +1S Drug)
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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 07:56

Obviously:
Blasterborn/Suicidal Heat Lance bearers.

Less obviously:
Maybe huge blob Hellions, they can enter cover, survive shooting due to 3+ cover, shoot by themselves (40 poisoned shots isn't bad), assault next turn.

Archons are crap in challenges now, you'll see only SM combat indeps in 2++/4++ or even 2++/3++. If you want to use Archon, there are two ways:
1) Give him an Axe and rely on your shadowfield. I7 wasted. But atlest he is Str4 now.
2) Venomblade, and may be add Djin Blade. Many attacks, many wounds, let enemy roll his saves - may be he'd fail one or two.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 08:41

@Mnemonic wrote:
Can use of the new Fortifications slot enhance the use of Webway portals?

Maybe place it behind an Aegis Defence Line and have your assault units go to ground behind it when they arrive? Not sure how that works the following turn though. Would they be able to assault?

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 09:39

Archon with huskblade and shadowfield is actually slightly more likely to kill a 2+ save IC with a powerfist than that character is to kill him. It essentially comes down to who throws a 1 first.

You could always equip an Archon with a venom blade and a power axe (I checked, you now get +1 attack from having any 2 close combat weapons, except unless specially stated in the weapon rules, like with fists, thunder hammers and lightning claws). Use the axe for dealing with high armour enemies, and switch to the venom blade when you need to hit with your own initiative.

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 13:11

I think that I will be trying to place my WWPs near cover in my first few test games, but cover that is near to enemy back benchers/supprt. Then inside the WWP will be 3 units (any mix) with Move Through Cover:

- Talos
- Hellions
- Beasts

When they arrive, they skip into (or behind for Hellions) cover and gain a solid save (preferably with Phant Grenade Launchers too in case the enemy are close by). I think I'll be trying the Baron + Beasts in one unit first of all. Then in my following turn they move out of cover ASAP and close to within good striking distance of the enemy and pounce into assault with them.

Gonna keep it simple for the moment and stick with this formula - might try dual WWPs in the list too to keep the options open and have 2 talos in reserve (with a razorwing for anti air)

edit: is our best way to deploy WWPS still using raiders?

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 14:29

If you want first turn deployment, you can only move 6'' with the Raiders, so it doesn't really matter if you are in a vehicle or on foot. Harlequins will give the WWB model 4+/2+ cover (depending on whether he's in the open or actually in cover), so they might work if you want to avoid getting shot at.

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 17:17

Nomic, I think that it does matter because you still get to move after disembarking from a raider - thus a total of 12" (6 in raider + 6 on foot).

Harlies are awesome, but wouldn't get there fast enough frankly...

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NiteOwl
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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 21:58

Since you can buy terrain now. My first thought is to buy a ruin/building and then place it somewhere strategic (not sure when you deploy your own terrain? anyone know?). Then I would get my WWP their, then let my reserves enter the board. They will be in great cover against the enemy guns. PGL will be good if you then charge out of the terrain feature (if the enemy is close enough tongue

This way, the nerf to reserves isn't that severe Smile

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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 01 2012, 22:09

my first thought for using a WWP in 6th is to...

choose a corner that's not well defended, giving us the opportunity to use our fast units as a flanking force.

choose a large building, which to deploy behind, giving us cover where we can launch a diversionary attack.

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 01:58

Been giving the changes to wwp's a lot of thought and right now I think I will be doing the following:

Use the portal to deliver shooting units and keep the primary assault units on the board in a raider. Since we have to put half our units on the board then a dedicated assault unit in a raider that hangs on the back board edge is fairly safe especially with night fight and nightshields.

Strategic note: You roll for night fight before you deploy your forces - so you will know ahead of time to make changes.

Turn 1 you move your wwp deployers forward to drop the portal while the dedicated assault units in raiders flat out and sail into their deployment zone. Turn 2, majority of reserve units enter the game while your assault units are right there side by side.

Reavers can either start on the board of use the wwp - I used reavers in wwp lists as Bloodvane primarily and once the end up in the opponents deployment zone, use heat lances or just bloodvane again.

Scourges will continue to be declared deepstriking but will primarily use the portal to close with heat lances or not get so close and use haywire blasters.

Beasts could use the wwp but I think they have enough goodness to do quite well on the table.

Hellions take a hit in not getting into assault out of a wwp - not sure about starting on the table either. They are on the bubble until we try them out - Baron would a primary candidate for escorting but I am not crazy about starting them on the board or deepstriking them. I do want to work them into my lists since they were a major component of my WWP lists in 5th.

Talos with heat lances coming out of the portal is actually making things simple since they can't assault they might as well take a shot at armor and worry about assault next turn. I can see these guys freaking the opponent out and them soaking with bolter fire. I also always ran them with twin linked liquifiers and with this stupid wwp rule the liquifiers are a nice fit since you never know what is dumb enough to get close to a portal.

I also want to say even the Cronos got better! (Am I the first?) Having that Smash attack gives it a boost not to mention all the other gribblies an MC gets. Granted, not fantastic against infantry but getting 2 smash attacks at str 10 AP2 is very very nice.

Shooting units in the portal - they emerge and fire while assault units on the table are charging simultaneously. I think that is something to try.

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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 03:10

When I run a talos, I also run a chronos. Simple. It is far and away the easiest way to give the talos a pain token, as the prevalence of powerfists/klaws normally leads to a dead talos before he can snag a token of his own. Even when I am rolling well...

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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 03:49

Reavers get a new advantage when jumping out of WWP: Because they now move 12" in the Movement Phase, and Turbo Boost an additional 36" in the shooting phase, you have a lot more choice in which units they use their bladevanes on and where the Reavers end up at the end of the Turbo Boost move. You can even move over a unit during the Movement Phase and then Turbo-Boost back over the WWP, putting it between the Reavers and the unit they just Bladevane attacked!

In addition, the huge buffs to Skilled Rider cannot be overstated. Reavers now automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests, and Turbo Boost no longer has any restriction on entering terrain. This enables Reavers to end their moves (whether Turbo Boosting or making an 2d6" Assault Phase move) inside terrain - useful if they might be assaulted or shot at by IG Hydras.

Given that every deployment setup has a 24-inch "No Man's Land," Scourges will also do well as a WWP unit - especially since you can declare them as Deep Striking when you reserve them, giving you a great deal of flexibility when they do come in from reserve.
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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 04:48

I think WWP is going to be a tough one to use effectively... I already had problems keeping mine clear, even when I placed them farther back (slightly before the halfway mark). Now, with every unit being more mobile, and with a focus on faster units like bikers and JI, I think we're going to see our WWP's getting clogged up more often. When we do get something out of our WWP, we're going to have to worry about the emplacement where you get too shoot an anything coming in from reserve, as (esp with flyers) I think that one is going to be popular.

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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 09:13

well for startes, Scourges, Hellions and Reavers, just jump over the guys that try to clogged our WWP. Sadly neither the Talos nor cronos have the old, just move over enemy rule, and beasts can also be blockt. but if you place your WWP around 20" away from your board eage you should be able to attack the unit clogging the WWP.

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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 10:55

@NiteOwl wrote:
Since you can buy terrain now. My first thought is to buy a ruin/building and then place it somewhere strategic (not sure when you deploy your own terrain? anyone know?).

I think that rumour was a slightly misleading description of the fortification rules. I don't think you can buy any other terrain and the fortifications you do buy have to be in your deployment zone. (That's my understanding - I'm open to correction.)
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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 12:03

I may be wrong but I'm not sure fortifications have to be in your deployment zone. How ever, if they are not you cannot deploy in them.
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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 12:23

That's a shame. Well well, you will just have to find some good cover out there in the field. Or just deploy shoting units out of the portal.

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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 14:37

Fortification do have to be placed in your deployment zone.

When thinking of fortifications in relation to the WWP the Comm Relay that you van buy with either the Aegis Defense Line and the Imperial Bastion seem to interesting. Granted it is a lot of points in order to get a re-roll for reserves but a 3+ with re-roll is kinda nice.

The funny thing is that the comms relay is explained in the Battlefield Debris section but shows up in the fortifications section as an option. I guess I do not understand battlefield debris section of the book.

Wow, didn't realize that our Reavers have a 36" turbo boost, the Rule book says jetbikes have a 24" turbo - 48" threat bubble out of the portal?

You do not need a WWP, they can hit anything on the table on the turn they arrive OR do 1st turn Bloodvane if they like (and T4 for insta killing).

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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 19:37

@Grumpy Kwi wrote:
Wow, didn't realize that our Reavers have a 36" turbo boost, the Rule book says jetbikes have a 24" turbo.

All Eldar jetbikes now have a 36" turbo-boost move. (BRB, p. 45 "Eldar (and Dark Eldar) Jetbikes" box)
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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 20:03

@Grumpy Kwi wrote:
Fortification do have to be placed in your deployment zone.

Actually Fortifications 'must be set up wholly within the owning player's table half and not within 3" of another fortification.' (Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, Set Up Fortifications, pg120)

It's only a 12" difference, but it might open up certain tactics very slightly.


Also for our Jet bikes this means they have a 12" movement in the Movement phase and then the 36" turbo boost in the Shooting phase. That's a rather massive distance.
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PostSubject: Re: WWPs in 6E   WWPs in 6E I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 00:57

Not only is it a massive distance but it allows us to manouvre more strongly too - before it was a straight line, now you can get into place with the 12" and then bomb it in the shooting phase - like an 'L' shape...

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