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 What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th

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The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
The_Burning_Eye

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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 23:14

What I'd read seemed to suggest that you kept applying wounds to the closest model until it was dead, but that might be different with independent characters.

Got some interesting thoughts on dissies, bear with me.

EDIT:
So I've been thinking about terminators, and the best way of actually killing them now that it seems fewer weapons will be able to negate their save seems to be shooting (FAQ dependent of course, if klaives etc become AP2 this'll change).
So after a page full of fraction calculations, I came up with the following fire protocol for Dark Lances, Disintegrators and Splinter Cannons.
TEQ (tactical): Disintegrators, then Dark Lances, then Splinter Cannons. Disintegrators are double the effectiveness of splinter cannons, and 1.8 times that of dark lances. A disintegrator ravager should kill 2 termies per turn.
TEQ (assault with storm shields): Disintegrators, Splinter Cannons, Dark Lances. Hands up who wasn't expecting that! dissies are 2.4 times as effective as dark lances, and splinter cannons are 1.8 times as effective as DL's. A dissie ravager will kill 1.3 (so between 1 and 2) per turn, or 4 in three turns to be precise.
MEQ: Disintegrators, Splinter Cannons, Dark Lances. Again, dissies are more than twice as effective as DL's. Splinter cannons 1.2x DL's
GEQ: Splinter Cannons, Dissies, DL's. Obviously SC's and Dissies are miles ahead of dark lances on this one.

So, given wyches, voidravens and haywaire blasters seem to be the way to go to take out tanks, I'm thinking that second ravager might get dissies to take out termie squads after the voidraven takes out the land raider bounce

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Last edited by The_Burning_Eye on Fri Jun 29 2012, 23:49; edited 1 time in total
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Ben_S
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 23:47

I don't think I've seen a detailed explanation of the new allocation rule - simply people saying 'nearest to farthest' - so I assumed that, as in 5th, you allocate the wounds before taking saves.

I think I did read something about mixed save units (the case being wolf guard), so that would be relevant here, but afraid I don't remember what it said or where it was (Faeit?).
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 23:50

edited my post above to look at heavy weapons.

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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 00:08

About Mandrakes and Haemonculi. Infiltrate special rule specifically says that if at least one model in the unit has Infiltrate special rule, it confers to the entire unit. Yes, the Independent Character entry indeed states that the special rules of the unit IC joins do not confer and vice versa, unless specified. The example for this exception is Stubborn, which, fortunately for us, is worded exactly the same way as Infiltrate - at least one model must have the rule, then it is conferred to the entire unit.

So yay! Mandrakes will actually be worth fielding!

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 00:18

@Ben_S wrote:
@Ruke wrote:
you still use the predominant T value of the unit to determine its toughness, haemun taking the fire is a good idea though

Shame, that really would have been useful, since the T5 guy could reduce the overall number of wounds.

I don't see the haemy/archon making too much difference though. As I understand it, you put the first wound on them, but then the next wound goes on the next closest model. It's not like they can take all the bullets. Or have I got that wrong?

That's what I was thinking too. Surely you just allocate x wounds to the nearest x models to the firer and then roll saves? I really can't imagine that you apply each and every wound to the nearest model until it dies! Even GW aren't that mental are they?

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Ceddyn
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 00:42

@Ben_S wrote:
I don't think I've seen a detailed explanation of the new allocation rule - simply people saying 'nearest to farthest' - so I assumed that, as in 5th, you allocate the wounds before taking saves.

I think I did read something about mixed save units (the case being wolf guard), so that would be relevant here, but afraid I don't remember what it said or where it was (Faeit?).

if you roll the dice 1 by 1 and always take away the closest model you would have used the rules correctly, but that would take a lot of time.

I'll give you the example under 'fast rolling' in the rulebook. That should make it clear:

A unit of 17 ork boyz (6+) with a nob (4+) are under attack and get 8 wounds. There are 6 boyz with the same save at the front of the unit, then the nob and the rest behind him.
You take 6 saves for the boyz, fail 4 and save 2. Now there are 2 boyz, the nob the rest of the boyz and 2 remaining wounds. you take those on the 2 boyz.


Only the save counts to determine if a model belongs to the closest group. If the nob in the example had kept his default 6+ armour, you would have rolled all 8 saves together and taken away the closest models.

@Count Adhemar wrote:
That's what I was thinking too. Surely you just allocate x wounds to the nearest x models to the firer and then roll saves? I really can't imagine that you apply each and every wound to the nearest model until it dies! Even GW aren't that mental are they?
Actually that's exactly what the allocation rules say. You can roll them together in groups of equal save and start taking away the closest models first.
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 00:46

@Siticus, do you actually have the book? I'm not sure that others would agree with your reasoning there... (But I do hope you are correct!!)

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 01:34

Mixed Saves: If the unit contains several different saving throws... first allocate wounds from the wound pool to the enemy model closest to the firing unit, the model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one. If it fails, reduce it wounds by 1, if it is reduced to 0 wounds, remove it as a casualty. Continue allocating wounds to the closest model, taking saves and removing casualties until the wound pool is empty, or all models in the unit have been removed as causalties.

So yes, if your archon is out front, he can absorb all the fire.

It's sad that our stupid high weapons skill doesnt count for anything at all again.

Now, as for infiltrate, mandrakes, and haemuns... It does indeed say "In a unit that has at least one model with this special rule..." and it with IC's it gives the example of stubborn, which is in fact worded the same way, so you could attach any of the IC's to them, including farseers and all kinds of fun. Mandrakes are back in play!

Edit:

The following rules are all worded "In a unit that has at least one model with this special rule..." and thus will confer a squads abilities on an IC and an ICs abilities on a squad..."

Acute Senses
Adamantium Will
ATSKNF
Counter Attack
Crusader
Fearless
Hit and Run
Infiltrate
Move Through Cover
Night Vision
Preferred Enemy
Scout
Shrouded
Skilled Rider
Slow and Purposeful
Split Fire
Stealth
Stubborn
Tank Hunters
Zealot
----------------

On the upside, if you toss a hamun in with a group of allies, that group gains night vision!

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Last edited by Ruke on Sat Jun 30 2012, 02:16; edited 1 time in total
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Captain Mayhem
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 02:05

I still want to know what happens when you fire something with the blast profile. does it hit as if it was a weapon without a blat profile, or do you still need to roll scatter after placing the pie plate?

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 02:20

Blasts work exactly the same, no changes, except when it comes to damaging vehicles (any vehicle under the template take the full effects, the hole in the center of the template doesnt have to be over the vehicle anymore)


Haywire wyches are going to be brutal, since vehicles count as being WS1 if they moved, and WS0 if they didnt.

I will also confirm that vehicles that are wrecked, and any passengers cannot disembark they are removed as casualties. HOWEVER! They get a 3" emergency disembark move... idk if it would be possible to space out wyches so that they couldnt get out...

EDIT:

Emergency disembarkation: if you cant disembark your unit normally, you can place them in contact with ANY POINT on the hull of the vehicle, they can then move (up to 6") but cannot do anything else that turn. So, in order for wyches to be able to kill an entire unit by wrecking it you would have to completely surround the vehicle, spacing your wyches so that the unit inside would not be able to set even a single model down.

Further Edit:

Skimmer that move flat out this turn OR THE PREVIOUS TURN and suffer an immob result is immediately wrecked.

Allies can not embark on each others vehicles, even if they are battle brothers

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Captain Mayhem
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 03:57

the blasts working the same as before? that's kind of lame...

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 04:04

What were you expecting?

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RocketRollRebel
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 05:47

@Mindless_Murder wrote:
So all in all what does this mean with hellions? We assault now with i10 due to them being jump infantry? Is this true???

Some peoples FLGS give their customers product the day that they get it Wink You get "hammer of wrath"( which is an extra attack at "unmodified strength with and ap of -...at initiative 10) in the assault phase if you dont choose to use your jump packls in the movement phase. So basically yeah you can either move 12" or get the bonus in CC but not both.

edit - I really dont know where I am going. The rule about only being able to disembark if you went 6" or less kinda sucks but correct me if im wrong but can fast skimmers go 30" in one turn? 12" Movement and 18" flat out??

Hellions with the Baron are going to be even better although I'm sad he doesnt have skilled rider (just his own rule that says re roll failed dangerous terrain tests) because that now allows you to simply ignore the terrain! WWP are useless tho with the new reserves rule Sad

I really want wyches to be awesome but I just dont know now... le sigh!

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 08:31

Quote :
WWP are useless tho with the new reserves rule

True story, and combine that with the fact you cant assault the turn you come in from reserves... feel like those two were specifically targeted at DE... Er... How does this affect daemons?

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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 08:38

@Ruke wrote:
Quote :
WWP are useless tho with the new reserves rule

True story, and combine that with the fact you cant assault the turn you come in from reserves... feel like those two were specifically targeted at DE... Er... How does this affect daemons?

well than you just send the shooty stuff through and you will not even have a problem with only 50%, as it's not that many things that a viable to go from there. manly Harpies, Hyemshin, and maybe Trueborn.....and firedragons, wraithgard, dire avangers, warp spiders... well that is, if they are allowed to use it too...

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 08:41

Ill probably take one and push wraithguard and wraithlords through, the way allies rules are written, it sounds like they should be able to. and infilling a haemun with some mandrakes is going to be the end-all be-all for WWP lists. I'll probably be using wraithguard as my allied troop choice.

I'm excited to be able to test out some mandrakes!

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Last edited by Ruke on Sat Jun 30 2012, 08:44; edited 1 time in total
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Eduboy94
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 08:41

Are Incubis now useless?

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 08:47

until the FAQ comes out, yes... and no... they can do the same thing they did in 5th, and thats take out troops with armor of 3+, and which arent elite.

After reading through the rulebook, I don't expect incubi to get AP2 weapons, since their +1str comes from their weapon being two handed, not because they are power axes...


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Eduboy94
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 09:04

How fast FAQ's and Erratas usually come?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 09:08

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@Ruke wrote:
Quote :
WWP are useless tho with the new reserves rule

True story, and combine that with the fact you cant assault the turn you come in from reserves... feel like those two were specifically targeted at DE... Er... How does this affect daemons?

well than you just send the shooty stuff through and you will not even have a problem with only 50%, as it's not that many things that a viable to go from there. manly Harpies, Hyemshin, and maybe Trueborn.....and firedragons, wraithgard, dire avangers, warp spiders... well that is, if they are allowed to use it too...

Yeah, cos you really want your fragile assault units in the backfield being shot at from turn 1 whilst all your firepower arrives mid-game in assault range of the enemy...

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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 09:31

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@Ruke wrote:
Quote :
WWP are useless tho with the new reserves rule

True story, and combine that with the fact you cant assault the turn you come in from reserves... feel like those two were specifically targeted at DE... Er... How does this affect daemons?

well than you just send the shooty stuff through and you will not even have a problem with only 50%, as it's not that many things that a viable to go from there. manly Harpies, Hyemshin, and maybe Trueborn.....and firedragons, wraithgard, dire avangers, warp spiders... well that is, if they are allowed to use it too...

Yeah, cos you really want your fragile assault units in the backfield being shot at from turn 1 whilst all your firepower arrives mid-game in assault range of the enemy...

if in your army your Harpies, Hyemshin, and maybe Trueborn would be all your firepower, then you are right. in my lists there are still warrior squads, vipers, ravangers, fighters/bombers, yeah, thats about it ;-)

A WWP is just another way to deploy stuff, like meltas, that need to get into range.

And yes, assault need to stay back, or may join the WW Party, but they then need to wait a moment until it's their time to shine. A Talos could also be nice. give him a heat lance, and see where it goes.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 09:37

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
if in your army your Harpies, Hyemshin, and maybe Trueborn would be all your firepower, then you are right. in my lists there are still warrior squads, vipers, ravangers, fighters/bombers, yeah, thats about it ;-)

A WWP is just another way to deploy stuff, like meltas, that need to get into range.

And yes, assault need to stay back, or may join the WW Party, but they then need to wait a moment until it's their time to shine. A Talos could also be nice. give him a heat lance, and see where it goes.

Really unsure what your army consists of as Harpies are Tyranids, Vipers are Eldar and Fighter/Bombers are Orks. I haven't got a clue what Hyemshin are!

If by "wait a moment until it's their time to shine" you mean "stand around like lemons getting obliterated by the entire enemy army" then sure, our assault units are still golden.

In any event, WWP is now effectively useless unless FAQ'd so that you can assault out of it. There's also the issue that first turn deployment of the portal itself is now much harder as you cannot get as far across the board due to changes in rules for disembarking from vehicles.

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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 09:40

except you can deploy your mandrakes with a haemy and all can infiltrate... better and more cost effective imo.

5 wracks w/liquifier/raider
haemun w/liquifier/WWP
215 points: Disadvantage - May not get to the location you need them to get to
Advantage - big metal floating box to protect them

5 mandrakes
1 nightfiend
haemun w/mindphase gauntlet/liquifier/WWP
205 points: Disadvantage - more susceptible to fire
Advantage - almost 100% chance you will be able to deploy your WWP where you want, stealth, haemun challenges.

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Last edited by Ruke on Sat Jun 30 2012, 09:51; edited 1 time in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 09:43

@Ceddyn wrote:
@Ben_S wrote:
I don't think I've seen a detailed explanation of the new allocation rule - simply people saying 'nearest to farthest' - so I assumed that, as in 5th, you allocate the wounds before taking saves.

I think I did read something about mixed save units (the case being wolf guard), so that would be relevant here, but afraid I don't remember what it said or where it was (Faeit?).

if you roll the dice 1 by 1 and always take away the closest model you would have used the rules correctly, but that would take a lot of time.

I'll give you the example under 'fast rolling' in the rulebook. That should make it clear:

A unit of 17 ork boyz (6+) with a nob (4+) are under attack and get 8 wounds. There are 6 boyz with the same save at the front of the unit, then the nob and the rest behind him.
You take 6 saves for the boyz, fail 4 and save 2. Now there are 2 boyz, the nob the rest of the boyz and 2 remaining wounds. you take those on the 2 boyz.


Only the save counts to determine if a model belongs to the closest group. If the nob in the example had kept his default 6+ armour, you would have rolled all 8 saves together and taken away the closest models.

@Count Adhemar wrote:
That's what I was thinking too. Surely you just allocate x wounds to the nearest x models to the firer and then roll saves? I really can't imagine that you apply each and every wound to the nearest model until it dies! Even GW aren't that mental are they?
Actually that's exactly what the allocation rules say. You can roll them together in groups of equal save and start taking away the closest models first.

Dear god, they are that mental! This is going to slow the game to a crawl, as well as meaning that the likes of Draigo will be standing at the front of units providing them with a mobile bulwark to hide behind.

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

Posts : 7557
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 30 2012, 09:44

@Ruke wrote:
except you can deploy your mandrakes with a haemy and all can infiltrate... better and more cost effective imo.

Seriously, this rumour has got out of control. You cannot deploy an IC with infiltrators. This was clarified in the original post and has subsequently been confirmd by various people. Let's all just forget about Mandrakes being useful shall we? Not going to happen!

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What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 3 I_icon_minitime

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