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 What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 21:39

Are you aware that the math is saying that the raider has the same kill per point than the venom only in rapid fire range? At longer range the venom is better, you have 1 more blaster shot every 2 raiders (better against vehicles and paladins), you can split and have more mobility and you have 1 more troop. You can kite better and one lucky shot won't nullify half of your troops choice.

Everything is saying that venoms are the superior tactical choice. I don't know why you are so stubborn defending that raider with splinter racks and disintegrator. GL in tournaments.
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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 10 2012, 23:33

Quote :
you lose one squad potential nonetheless. But if you give a leeman russ the opportunity to shoot at you...well thats a tactical error to begin with
In real games, you're always gonna be shot by something, whatever it is, and it can be a leeman russ.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 00:20

@Ereshkigal wrote:
Are you aware that the math is saying that the
raider has the same kill per point than the venom only in rapid fire
range? At longer range the venom is better, you have 1 more blaster shot
every 2 raiders (better against vehicles and paladins), you can split
and have more mobility and you have 1 more troop. You can kite better
and one lucky shot won't nullify half of your troops choice.

Everything
is saying that venoms are the superior tactical choice. I don't know
why you are so stubborn defending that raider with splinter racks and
disintegrator. GL in tournaments.
where in the world did you learn that 0.018 is equivalent to 0.028?!
at greater range, the raider has more kill points due to shooting with non blasters.
to quote: raider/venom
36" 1.92/1.33
24" 2.3/1.77
18" 2.3/2.32
12" 4.76/2.77
only a 0.02 increase for blaster venom at 18" venom is greater at long range? a raider, at 18" is still 1.1 kill above the venom
Lets look at the rest: 36" 0.59 raider, 24" 0.53, 12" 1.99 so in overal its a 1.04 increase for raider 0.02 point effectivity, and a venom doesnt even reach 0.02, only 0.018 Razz

what is this i hear about losing half my effectiveness?! 14 vs 30, remember? i lose 1, i lose 5, you lose 1, you lose 3 in the effectiveness, 11 vs 25, still raiders win.

btw for comparison overall, a gunboat kill 0.77 more marines per shooting phase. The cost more, but are worth their points.

@Fruz yeah, but better a squad of marines with a snapshot lascannon, than a leman russ full bs Very Happy

Edit: calculated the loss rate: venoms are 0.0176 when losing transport, raiders are 0.0285 instead of 0.0289 - kill per point.
Edit 2.1: if you'd like i can calculate the remaining forces potency to the battle. That will be in the morn, if i do it though Very Happy its a bit late and had a bit to much vodka to go with it Very Happy

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Zaid
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 01:56

Sweetness. Forgeworld has released it's updated PDF's converting all of its products to 6th Ed.

The list that particularly interested me is the document that lists the Imperial Armor and IA Apoc units because the wording and trend is that these units will become legal despite not being put into Codex (or being declared as Codex legal in a book other than their Codex).
So, if any of you convert or buy FW or face people who C or B the new rules in stone are there.

And because ours are few and we can expect them to be debated immediately:

Raven 2 Hull Points -Flyer- Deep Strike, Night Vision, Vector Dance, Supersonic, Strafing Run

Reaper 3 HP -Skimmer, Fast, Open-topped- Night Vision

Tantalus 4 HP -Skimmer, Fast, Open-topped, Tank- Night Vision, Deep Strike

-Z
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 08:21

Enfernus your math is wrong and you are in denial.
Play as you like, i don't want to continue this debate anymore. Shooting 12 shots at 36" while moving 12" it's a different story than shooting only if you move 6" or less and at 24" or less range. To me it's a no brainer, moving more, shooting at longer range, having more troops, giving more targets while having the same point efficiency it's the best choice (0,020 for venom, 0,021 for raider. Same hull points per point, same armor). The only reason to ever take a raider gunboat is if you already have 2 venoms with warriors and you have some extra spare point to upgrade the third venom to a gunboat instead of going to the 3 venom route. But if you have the points, 4 venoms is better.

But if you like to gimp yourself, be my guest.
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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 17:38

Ok, I've had several 750pts games with my Deldar now and first thoughts are that our staple triple Ravagers loaded up with dark lances will likely shift towards 2 Ravagers with a Razorwing/Voidraven or 3 Voidravens in larger games. Flyers are a key aspect of 6th ed and a powerful one once you get the hang of how they move. The points effective Ravager is very hard to pass up though. The Razorwing and at least 1 Ravager will be a fixture in my lists for sure. I know some people are considering swapping lances for disintegrators since glancing is much more potent now but I think I'll be sticking with lances as dissies rapidly become ineffective above AV 10/11 whereas the lance will always have a chance at taking out any vehicle your opponent can play. Besides, if you want to glance a vehicle to death, that's what haywire is for. Bringing me on to my next point.

I think Wyches can still work as assault troops, just getting them that first Pain Token is even more important than it was before so they can survive those overwatches. I can see more Haemies starting off with Wyches in Raiders before having the Wyches jump out with the token, leaving the Haemy behind to go around liquifiying/shattering stuff. The phantasm grenade launcher seems to be another good way of helping deal with overwatch but you will need to not just be assaulting into terrain but also through terrain, if that makes sense, to get the benefits. Likewise, assaulting across open ground just won't work, that 6+ cover save isn't really going to be much help. So, it does seem quite good but also unreliable. I think playtesting is definitely needed here. Blast pistols are also likely to be taken more often as you won't be running before assaults anymore. Just be careful of causing too many casualties that you're out of charge range. If you're going to soften an enemy unit up, try shooting at it with another unit from a different angle so they can't remove the models closest to the Wyches. On the other hand, blast pistols may see use in small units of 5 Wyches. With the buffs to haywire, these girls are amazing at anti-tank as has been pointed out many times already in this forum. Having that blast pistol shot before the charge can help even take out 4 hull point vehicles in one turn. It's not cheap though as you'd have to buy the Hekatrix. I think this will be another thing that will need to be tested in some games to see if it's worth it or not.

Finally, Warriors. I've always taken the 10-man squad more than the 5-man squad due to personal preference and now I think that will continue to be the case, if not more so, in 6th. Kabalites have gotten more versatile and generally all-round more potent. Aside from being hurt more from exploding transports, I can't see anyway these guys have gotten worse and everything I've seen so far on the tabletop has been an improvement. Points allowing, dropping flickerfields on all our non-flying vehicles, replacing them with splinter racks on Kabalite gunboats and either leaving the Ravagers and assault transports bare or giving them night shields seems a safe bet.

I haven't tested much more than that although I do have a question for people who have given Reavers a try as I'm thinking of adding them into my army list as I build up to larger games in the coming weeks. It would seem they have gotten a boost from 6th ed but is running them with caltrops and bladevaning infantry before jump-shoot-jumping with splinter rifles the most efficient or equipping them with heat lances for anti-tank duty? I think giving them both is too much of a points sink, not to mention inefficient use of points but I can't decide between them.

Many thanks in advance and I hope some of my rambling was useful. Smile
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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 18:08

in small groups of reavers, take the AT, for groups of 9, take the caltrops. you can delete a unit a turn with a good roll against anything but power armour. they're uber fast and fairly resilient. depending on combat drugs they can do ok in CC against a weakened target too. i've loved my 9 strong unit in the games of 6th i've played
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 18:10

I found it useful.
I will be taking a dissie ravager though to put some hurt on termies (9 AP2 shots? yes please).
My understanding is that overwatch shots are taken before your unit moves, so as long as they're in cover at the start of their move, they'll get a save.

I'm certainly going to be taking cluster caltrops on reavers (yup, they're already painted...) as it seems to me to be a very valid tactic to put a big unit in reserve to come through a WWP, ideally to bladevane, then shoot something tank shaped then jump into cover. Just a thought though, does anyone know offhand if you can use bladevanes when turbo-boosting? Can't remember if the rule specifies the movement phase or not (codex not handy)

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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 18:29

Yeah, I was edging towards caltrops since hopefully the meta will shift away from mech spam in this edition reducing the need for heat lances and instead anti-infantry, especially with haywires recieving such a huge boost. Maybe take a unit of 9 with 3 caltrops, 1 heat lance for opportunistic shots and an Arena Champion with a venom blade. I appreciate the input guys. Smile

That's a point, dissies will be useful for Termies so I think I'll leave my Ravagers with lances but give my Razorwing and perhaps the odd Raider the cannons.

I'd forgotten the point about when overwatch is taken so that shouldn't be as hard as I thought to get some cover. Just hide behind any cover you can find, declare a charge against a nearby unit, pop the launchers and then grab some slaves for Commorragh! Very Happy

Bladevanes are described as being used when you Turbo Boost and only when you Turbo Boost. So, yes, you can slash/bomb an enemy unit while Turbo-Boosting but not in the movement phase.

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 18:31

I've been having a blast with my new list:

Quote :
1715
17 VP

HQ:
Succubus (VB/BP, Haywires) = 90
Succubus (VB/BP, Haywires) = 90

TROOP:
5x Warriors (Raider NS, Blaster) = 130
5x Warriors (Raider NS, Blaster) = 130
10x Warriors (Raider, NS, SR, Blaster, SC) = 195
10x Warriors (Raider, NS, SR, Blaster, SC) = 195
9x Wyches (Raider NS, Hekatrix/VB/PGL/BP, Haywires) = 225
9x Wyches (Raider NS, Hekatrix/VB/PGL/BP, Haywires) = 225

HEAVY:
Ravager (NS) = 115
Ravager (NS) = 115
Voidraven (NS/FF, 4x SF) = 205

The gunboats with Splinter Racks with the new Rapid Fire rules are just amazing. I love those boats of mine.
The Voidraven is questionable for its points, but it's been having fun until more things gain access to Skyfire.

If I cut the Voidraven and just replace it with a Ravager, I'll have 125 points to play with in the current list. That can buy me some Reavers to mess around with, so I'll keep an open mind with that.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 11 2012, 21:20

@HERO if you cut your voidraven, than you will have no AA at all sadly Sad but its your list, i just dont think you should lose it.
Anyhow, if a parking lot has acces to skyfire, wychwiregrenade them to death before the VR comes in.

I just had a good match, cured of my 6thedscksforus infection, and i had a blast and a slice and dice massacre, losing with one VP to GK, and this was one of those games i didnt bring an anty psyker haem...shame.
Our flyers came in in the same turn, i got a hit on my disintwing, but saved thanks to ff...next turn, the two voidravens blasted the bajesus out of that stormraven, and he failed almost all his saves for his paladins - aka draigo made his save, who later failed to save vs a huskblade...shame.

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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 14:44

I typically use Reavers for AT, but I wonder if including one with caltrops would be worth considering, to allow them to inflict some hurt when turboboosting (ie. any turn they aren't close enough to a tank to melta it, or when you need to wipe out an infantry unit).

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 16:00

Put a farseer in your squad, fortune herself, confering fortune to the whole squad, put some HL in the squad, caltrops to, and zoom.
When nothings near, fortune+bladevanes and caltrops, if simething is near, melt it to death - so preferably 3 HL+Farseer with spear Smile
Pricey, but can wreck havoc.

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Destramo
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 12 2012, 23:08

Does fortune work on the whole squad? Even if they are not (eldar) lol
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theblackjackal
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 01:21

A better question is, "does Fortune work on allied units with an independent character from Codex: Eldar?"

I only bring this up because it's a rather important gray area in the context of the Allies rules in general. For example, can an allied unit with a Lord Commissar attached accept orders from an Imperial Guard Officer (and as a corollary, can the Commissar perform a summary execution if they fail a Morale test?)?

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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 02:57

As for the Fortune Question, the fact is, we don't know. We can only speculate around. The best bet is still to ask the guys you play with if they are okay with it.
I bet GW won't FAQ it until the new Eldar codex comes out. (hopefully next year?!)


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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 04:07

so far, if you can fortune one model in a squad, you fortune the whole squad, as long as you can fortune the model with in range. If a farseer is part of a squad, and is fortuned, she confers the fortune to the whole squad.
Well, untill eldar 6th ed that is Very Happy

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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 10:46

@Enfernux wrote:
so far, if you can fortune one model in a squad, you fortune the whole squad, as long as you can fortune the model with in range. If a farseer is part of a squad, and is fortuned, she confers the fortune to the whole squad.
Well, untill eldar 6th ed that is Very Happy

That's how I assumed it would work which is nice. I mean, who wouldn't want a re-rollable 2++? This is one of the things that is making the decision between Codex powers and rulebook powers, specifically Divination, so difficult to me.
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 18:10

Remember that you have to pay for codex powers, whereas rulebook powers are free...

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Starstrider
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 18:26

@Ruke wrote:
Remember that you have to pay for codex powers, whereas rulebook powers are free...

Sadly not, Eldar must buy Codex powers first and then, before deployment, choose to either keep the powers they bought or swap them out for the relevant rulebook powers.
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 18:39

Wow... really? thats... terrible! Is that in the FAQ? I havn't read through that as thoroughly as i may have should...

**EDIT**

Ah, yep, it's right there... that sucks...

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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 19:19

I know, when I first read it in White Dwarf and then again in the FAQ I was a little disheartened as well. Especially when you consider Eldrad swaps out his 5 powers for only 4 of the new ones. I wouldn't say it's terrible though, as Farseers without any upgrades are very cheap and couldn't really be given new powers straight off. I hoped they might have come up with a way to work around it but I guess that's just what comes with having one of the older Codices. I would still very much consider exchanging the powers though as Prescience improves on Guide in almost every way and I could see PresceinceSeers possibly rivalling DoomSeers. Other powers in Divination and Telepathy are simply amazing as well. Precognition and Puppet Master to name a couple. I guess if you're planning on taking the new powers, just buy the cheaper Codex powers. Fingers crossed though Eldar will be well and truly re-established as the dominant psychic race when the new Codex comes out.
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 13 2012, 22:51

I think that, being an elite army - the dark eldar have weapons for different situations: to me, using splinter cannons on well armour units seems less useful than using them vs lower armoured units. Conversely - Dissintegrators are useful for taking down those high armoued units. Averages is all about bell shaped curves - NOT middle values. Theoryhammer almost never works in realistic play because games are too complex to isolate to simple A vs B scenarios: sure you can work out points 'efficiency' but - if you plan for pessimism: ie. your opponent is rolling well, then you'd bank on taking dissies because it simply negates the armour factor of determining averages. Similarly, dissies are a poor choice vs high number but low armour troops: splinter cannons are simply better.

I know I am stating the fairly obvious here, but its obvious for a reason IMHO. I've lost too many games to trying to predict and plan my strategies around 'average rolls' and being caught with my pants down due to the averages not proving to be true.

Just my experience and 50 pence worth - for what little it matters... Wink

edit: just realised I'm replying to a dicussion about splinter cannon vs dissies that happened about 3 pages ago! Laughing

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 00:39

I don't know, i don't remember the last time i lost with DE (tournament and friendly play) and i only 2 weapons: lances and splinter cannons (in 6th i am adding HWB and liquifiers to dislodge units in cover going to ground).

I just plan for a bit worse than average and then i simply play extra safe capitalyzing on my opponents errors. I never had the necessity to field dissies even against a loganwing. I don't know, when the opponent have to roll 50 saves, some 1s are going to show up.
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 11 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 14 2012, 02:31

So has anyone noticed that Jump Units can only use there Jump moves in the movement or assault phase not on both? Hellions can still use fleet in the assault phase to reroll charge, but can't HoW if they used there jump move in the movement phase.

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COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Drukhari Tactics
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