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 What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th

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Grumpy Kwi
Nightmare Doll on the Loose
Grumpy Kwi

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What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 14:50

So wait, your haywires can still score a pen and there is no chance of an explosion with a regular "pen"?

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The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
The_Burning_Eye

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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 15:12

I was working on the basis that scoring an explosion with a haywire is only going to happen about once every 36 attempts, so you're far more likely to wreck it through removal of hull points. I guess you could still cause it to explode, but you'd have to be very unlucky.

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Mindless_Murder
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 15:46

Sorry guys, I'm trying to understand this correctly and having a tough Time . Do jump infantry attack with initiative 10, do they attack based on there strength, or what? I heavily run hellions so I'm trying to get this squared away. Also, if we atk with initiative 10,do we compare it to their initiative? And lastly, is that just on the initial charge, or no?

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Sendreavus
Hellion
Sendreavus

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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 15:55

@Mindless_Murder wrote:
Sorry guys, I'm trying to understand this correctly and having a tough Time . Do jump infantry attack with initiative 10, do they attack based on there strength, or what? I heavily run hellions so I'm trying to get this squared away. Also, if we atk with initiative 10,do we compare it to their initiative? And lastly, is that just on the initial charge, or no?

The I10 attack happens before the normal assault, representing the impact of them dropping from the sky and yes at their str, then normal attacks happen I believe. Someone with a rulebook can quote it but from what I read from their posts this is what I understand.

If it replaced your normal initiative that would be kinda dumb since hellions already have high I anyway.
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Mindless_Murder
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 15:56

Also, this could possibly make the already suicidal tank busting scourges viable and versatile " if u run them like that anyway". Also, I know that its not ideal using them as AI unless put in a pinch seeing how we have plenty AI but the option may be afold. Last but not least, if attacking with initiative, that how would that work against a vehicle. Thanks guys, I'm a new player ( just started in January ) so pardon my ignorance, but thanks for not hate blogging Wink

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Sendreavus
Hellion
Sendreavus

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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 16:02

@Mindless_Murder wrote:
Also, this could possibly make the already suicidal tank busting scourges viable and versatile " if u run them like that anyway". Also, I know that its not ideal using them as AI unless put in a pinch seeing how we have plenty AI but the option may be afold. Last but not least, if attacking with initiative, that how would that work against a vehicle. Thanks guys, I'm a new player ( just started in January ) so pardon my ignorance, but thanks for not hate blogging Wink

Lol i just started at the end of May so I'm just soaking in all the info I can from here and other sites. I am definitely planning on running scourges now since haywire blasters are much more reliable at killing tanks now due to hull points.

Diversifying the anti-tank is never a bad thing Very Happy Dlances, wyches, scourges, blasterborn... etc Fast attack was the last slot DE generally filled anyways, this new update seems to make em more competitive.
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Mindless_Murder
Hellion
Mindless_Murder

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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 16:02

Also, this could possibly make the already suicidal tank busting scourges viable and versatile " if u run them like that anyway". Also, I know that its not ideal using them as AI unless put in a pinch seeing how we have plenty AI but the option may be afold. Last but not least, if attacking with initiative, that how would that work against a vehicle. Thanks guys, I'm a new player ( just started in January ) so pardon my ignorance, but thanks for not hate blogging Wink

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The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
The_Burning_Eye

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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 16:07

SCourges can put out some hefty AI, but given the prevalence of splinter weapons elsewhere and their high points cost, you're better off using them against tanks. Personally I can't see why anyone wouldn't include them in their lists if only so they can paint those gorgeous models, but I know not everyone is as keen on the painting as me.

As Sendreavus said, the I10 attack effectively represents impact hits from your units charging the enemy, so is resolved as their base strength, then their normal attacks resolved later with the bonuses from any weapons etc.

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Mindless_Murder
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 16:09

What is the actual strength of a haywire grenade if thrown? I know plasma is 4, and Krak is up there. I don't have the codex or Rulebook onhand. Online they post the strength / damage of all nades except haywire

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The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 16:12

they didn't have a strength under 5th edition, I guess because they're purely meant to mess with electrical circuits etc so don't affect anything else. Haywire blasters had a strength though, so it might relate to that.

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Mindless_Murder
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 16:13

Gotcha. Anything without initiative is unaffected as stated in the RB I do believe, so this initial" wraith" wouldn't do a damn thing against vehicles.

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Mindless_Murder
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 16:13

Gotcha. Anything without initiative is unaffected as stated in the RB I do believe, so this initial" wraith" wouldn't do a damn thing against vehicles.

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The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 16:20

well, you could throw one before you charged, but the hammer of wrath is made at your base strength (of 3) so no, it wouldn't even scratch the paintwork!

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 17:58

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Charging transports. Give your wych unit haywire grenades and charge that razorback/rhino etc. Surround it and hey presto you can wreck the vehicle with your haywire grenades, there's no explosion with a wreck so no damage and the unit inside is automatically destroyed. I guess you could try this with land raiders too to get rid of those pesky terminators, but I'd say it's more risky due to the number of access points and the sheer size of land raiders making them more difficult to surround. (Thanks to Ruke)

Do we know if the rules for models inside transports have changed at all? In particular the rules for getting out if the vehicle is destroyed.

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Azdrubael
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 18:11

Quote :
What is the actual strength of a haywire grenade if thrown?
Strenght 2 AP- Haywire

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The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 19:38

@Count Adhemar.
No, I don't know for definite, my rulebook still hasn't arrived Evil or Very Mad despite being dispatched two days ago so I can't check, but I haven't seen anywhere where anyone with the book has said that doesn't happen anymore.

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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 19:43

@Count Adhemar wrote:

Do we know if the rules for models inside transports have changed at all? In particular the rules for getting out if the vehicle is destroyed.

I think it's now S4 for the passangers and a pinning test. another bad thing for wyches.

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Venkh
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 20:27

Can we still block the exits and auto destroy the passengers?

On the subject of whats good this is my current assessment based on what i have seen so far:

Wyches - I suspect will be fine. Defensive granades help with overwatch, always get FNP on <s6 attacks. Haywires got better. If they get shot out in the open then you deserve to lose them.
Warriors - Again, they got a little better with the rapid fire rules. Better able to shoot from a raider. Still dont really rate them beyond the 5 man blaster squad.
Wracks - Perhaps as good with FNP against <s8. Liquifiers are still awesome. Am i right that they can now move 6" and charge 2d6? Better than before as i was always charging into cover anyway.
Bikes - Bikes got better. Faster
Hellions - Even more lethal when allied by the Baron. Tasty! An extra I10 attack as well.
Scourges - Haywire launcher is arguably better but they will be more vulnerable to incoming fire
Talos - Got meaner and uglier. Im scared!
Grotesques - The new poison rules allow them to take advantage of their S5 more often. With Furious charge they can now instakill s3 multiwound models. Again the liquifier rocks.Again, they can charge further.
Trueborn. Blasterborn not quite as flexible in venoms but then again, they were probably a bit too good before.
Bloodbrides - I dont use these so no comment
Ravagers - Still very good, cheap. Shooty
Voidraven - Lovely, I can understand the bomb now.
Venoms - Still amazing if not quite as flexible as before. If we see more footsloggers around they will fare very well indeed
Raiders - No worse off than any other transport to be honest. They tend to do their job in 2 turns so if they are gone by turn 3 so what?
Incubi - I always saw th/ss termis so i would not have used them vs 2+ saves anyway. Still absolutely scary vs MEQ's
Harlies - Never used them.
Beasts - Beastly.
Mandrakes - Still an assauly unit that cant really assault without a pain token and cant shoot till it has assaulted. Perhaps the one rubbish unit in the whole book.

Haemonculi - Not changed much, still a cheap pain token carrier
Archon - Stopped using one ages ago but yes they take a bit of a hit unless you have a Farseer with Fortune hanging around.
Succubi - Same again. Never rated them much in the first place. A bit less useful vs 2+ saves now.

Webway nerf really sucks. Hope they FAQ it.
Night fighting will be so much fun. So unfair Twisted Evil


I am going into this feeling fairly optimistic. I wont delve into the cesspool that is the exploitation of the allies rules. Like drinking i think it will be fine in moderation but horrible when taken to excess!

Im off to get my shiny new book soon.Good Luck!
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Sendreavus
Hellion
Sendreavus

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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 20:53

Agree with your assessment on pretty much anything, hopefully the cover under grenades gets cleared up in the rulebook/FAQ.

On bloodbrides, think they will be used the same pretty much. Escort for archon w/ 3 shardnets if you like going with a clone field instead of a shadow field.
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Azdrubael
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 21:04

Have you read Wound Allocation rules?

Snapfire wont affect Wyches much, if they are led by Haemunculi.
Thing is Wounds go to the closest to the shooter thing untill it dies. IC can also delegate those wounds on 2+ roll "Look Out, sir".

Meaning its quite likely to take 0 losses from snap-fire.

That same Haemunculi can challenge squad sergeants with Mindphase gauntlet to ask them to sleep. That might be handy against powerfists.

Same trick can be done by Archon with 2++, even more so he can outsave normal BS fire, not just snapfire.All alone.

Clawed Fiend can be used as a wound collector also.He will even get angrier =)
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Sendreavus
Hellion
Sendreavus

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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 21:20

@Azdrubael wrote:
Have you read Wound Allocation rules?

Snapfire wont affect Wyches much, if they are led by Haemunculi.
Thing is Wounds go to the closest to the shooter thing untill it dies. IC can also delegate those wounds on 2+ roll "Look Out, sir".

Meaning its quite likely to take 0 losses from snap-fire.

That same Haemunculi can challenge squad sergeants with Mindphase gauntlet to ask them to sleep. That might be handy against powerfists.

Same trick can be done by Archon with 2++, even more so he can outsave normal BS fire, not just snapfire.All alone.

Clawed Fiend can be used as a wound collector also.He will even get angrier =)

You are suggesting the haemy take the fire? Interesting. That however will leave the wyches without fleet so I guess that is a tradeoff that will have to be made. More reliable charge or not losing girls on the charge?

Lots of thinking and scheming to be done here hehehehhe...
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Ben_S
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 21:32

@Azdrubael wrote:
Have you read Wound Allocation rules?

[...]

Clawed Fiend can be used as a wound collector also.He will even get angrier =)

Do you still use the majority Toughness of the unit and only allocate wounds later? Or do you roll S vs T of the closest model? If the latter, then the Clawed Fiend and Sslyth will become better shields.
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The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 21:39

All good ideas, archon with shadowfield still has fleet so wouldn't slow down the wyches. Grenades should also take care of overwatch so I'm thinking that wyches are actually pretty safe overall in terms of nerfing. Sure, their FnP gets a bit of a hit, but most of the time you'll be using their 4+ dodge anyway (or should be!).

On that basis, I'm going to turn my attention to our heavy support, in particular weapon choices and are dissies now more worthwhile than before. I'll be back in a bit when I've had a think about it, haha!

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Ruke
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 22:16

dissies on raiders for sure, as far as snapfire and grenades go, since you declare your charge, then snapfire happens, then you move your models, the def grenades arent going to help out a ton, i dont think, but i could be wrong.

you still use the predominant T value of the unit to determine its toughness, haemun taking the fire is a good idea though, since all you lose is the reroll... if you think your wyches will need the reroll you can leave him behind in the move phase, but if they seem to be clear take him along.

does it seem like the court got any better?

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Ben_S
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 29 2012, 23:00

@Ruke wrote:
you still use the predominant T value of the unit to determine its toughness, haemun taking the fire is a good idea though

Shame, that really would have been useful, since the T5 guy could reduce the overall number of wounds.

I don't see the haemy/archon making too much difference though. As I understand it, you put the first wound on them, but then the next wound goes on the next closest model. It's not like they can take all the bullets. Or have I got that wrong?
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