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 What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th

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Bibitybopitybacon
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Bibitybopitybacon

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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 10:21

@Ben_S wrote:
@Siticus the Ancient wrote:
the Liquifier gun ... has 1 in 3 chance of turning termies into soup,

Not exactly. It has a one in three chance of rolling AP 1 or 2, which I suspect is what you refer to, but half of those occasions it will also turn out to be S3 or less. Not saying I'm not a fan, just that you over-state the case a bit. (Mind you, last night I got shot with two of those, both S6 and one AP1 - very nasty when that comes off.)
I think you are thinking of medusae, They have randomised ap and S.
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Ben_S
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 10:25

Ah, we did that wrong last night then. In my defence, it was my first time playing DE, but I expected my opponent to know the rules! Still, S4 = only wounding terminators half the time, so even if it's AP1-2 and they don't have storm shields, I'd hardly call that soup. With their big bases, it's hard to catch that many unless you can make them bunch up somehow.
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 10:31

don't forget the 5++ they get anyways.
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Setomidor
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 13:12

I'm going to throw something new onto the table here, consider the following;

Aegis Defence Line
20 Warriors, 2 Splinter Cannons
20 Warriors, 2 Splinter Cannons
20 Warriors, 2 Splinter Cannons
Haemonculus

The defense line obviously in front, units of Warriors lurking behind. The Haemonculus deploys in the most exposed squad granting them FNP. If needed, the Haemonculus can move over to another squad, taking the Paintoken with him. If some squad manages a kill, the Haemo can redistribute the Pain tokens by moving between the squads. The rest of the army consists of fast units (Scourges, Reavers, Flyers) zooming around the flanks and counter-assault units (Raiders with Incubi / Wyches, Hellions) hanging back with Lances (and Night Shields), waiting for the Enemy to advance.

Each squad fires 30 shots at long range, or 48 shots at Rapid Fire range (44 if moving 6" to get within range).
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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 13:19

@Setomidor wrote:
I'm going to throw something new onto the table here, consider the following;

Aegis Defence Line
20 Warriors, 2 Splinter Cannons
20 Warriors, 2 Splinter Cannons
20 Warriors, 2 Splinter Cannons
Haemonculus

The defense line obviously in front, units of Warriors lurking behind. The Haemonculus deploys in the most exposed squad granting them FNP. If needed, the Haemonculus can move over to another squad, taking the Paintoken with him. If some squad manages a kill, the Haemo can redistribute the Pain tokens by moving between the squads. The rest of the army consists of fast units (Scourges, Reavers, Flyers) zooming around the flanks and counter-assault units (Raiders with Incubi / Wyches, Hellions) hanging back with Lances (and Night Shields), waiting for the Enemy to advance.

Each squad fires 30 shots at long range, or 48 shots at Rapid Fire range (44 if moving 6" to get within range).

would be absolutely gorgeous to see until that drop pod dreadnought comes down and introduces you to his heavy flamer
i used to make a firebase out of pathfinders and farseer but gave up for the above reason. fluffy and cool, but so soo squishy


Last edited by csjarrat on Fri Jul 06 2012, 13:25; edited 1 time in total
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 13:21

@setomidor:

1) Very vunerable to back attacks.

1.1) Deepstrike. Units could DS in your warrior's back and shoot them to shreds first, then clean up the rest in an assault the next turn.

1.2) Flyers with transport capacity (Necron's flyer). They can fly over the defenceline, deploy units in your warriors back, shoot them to shreds first, then clean up the rest in an assault the next turn.

2) Template weapons (Blast templates, barrages, ordnance). They'll ignore the ADL completely, shredding up your warriors like a hot knife through butter.

So, didn't want to cut your tactics to pieces, but those are my 2 cents.

edit: Yeah, csjarrat mentions DSing too.

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 15:47

@tlronin
Wait.. I thought only flamer template ignored cover. I think blasts still let you claim cover... Did you mean flamer templates instead of blast?
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 16:38

Quote :
The idea of RJBs taking the brunt of an Overwatch to be followed by Wyches is a great example to this, and it's just something that came up only a week after 6th launched
Isn't the enemy chooses who to Overwatch?

P.S. Still dont have book.
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Kesharq
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 16:41

right now I played 2 games in 6th Ed.

1. Necrons (2x 6 Wraiths, 3x5 Immortals, 3 anni barges, some scarabs, Crypteks in every possible unit, 2 high lords). I used Blaster-archon, Blasterborn, 2x 5 Warriors in venoms, 10 Warriors in Raider 2x Ravagers, 6 RJB, 2x Beasts (each 3 Khymaeras+2 RFW, Haem with wwp). Lost the game by turn 3. I was charged by those wraiths and was not able to kill them (btw. bought new dice halfway thru the game...got 1-2 wounds out of 12 SC-shots on average)

2. BA (Devastors, vindicator, DSing DC-Cybot, 5x DC in rhino, 2x 9 SM in Rhino, Sanguinius priest). I used Lanceborn, 2x Ravagers, 6x RJB, 20 Warriors, 5 Wyches in venom, Wracks in venom, Blaster-archon+Blasterborn in venom, Gunboat-Raider, 5 Warriors in venom). In Turn 6 he had just 2 Devastors left.

In fight 1 a played as I would have played in 5th Ed.: Aggressive deployment of WWP, beasts + RJB race out of it... Total desaster!
In fight 2 I tried a more moderate approach: pick my fights, concentrate fire on vehicles that already lost HP.

What got better:
- Wyches against Cybots/Vehicles: 3 glances and the Cybot is out with HWG
- Blasterborn have to be deployed more aggressively (I killed 2 charging DC with snapfire)
- RJB do not have their 3+ coversave anymore when moving flat out - but a 4+ and they are able to move 2d6 during combat movement. Jumping in and out of cover now works better. T4 was already mentioned
- taking away casualties: the amount of splinterfire we are able to put out now works to our favor. shoot splinterweapons first, then DL-weaponry so they remove normal models first and the juicier models without any Armoursaves
- Nightsight now is a big plus to us (nightcombat here we come)

What got worse:
- gunboats never survive turn 1... perhaps I use them wrong or I still need more new dice...



just my 2 cents

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 17:59

Quote :
- RJB do not have their 3+ coversave anymore when moving flat out - but a 4+ and they are able to move 2d6 during combat movement. Jumping in and out of cover now works better. T4 was already mentioned
They do. Look for Skilled Rider.

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Kesharq
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 18:09

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
- RJB do not have their 3+ coversave anymore when moving flat out - but a 4+ and they are able to move 2d6 during combat movement. Jumping in and out of cover now works better. T4 was already mentioned
They do. Look for Skilled Rider.

Ok, then the RJB really got a boost... and I killed them by not flatting out.
I really have to write my own rulesheet - the rules in the german rulebook are so mixed that I seem to find nothing....

Thanks Azdrubael!

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Sendreavus
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 18:09

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
The idea of RJBs taking the brunt of an Overwatch to be followed by Wyches is a great example to this, and it's just something that came up only a week after 6th launched
Isn't the enemy chooses who to Overwatch?

P.S. Still dont have book.

If they get engaged with a unit they cannot overwatch the next one that assaults them as they are tied up in combat. So they have to do the first one otherwise they don't get any.

I'll edit this when I get home with the exact quote from the rulebook and pagenumber.

*Edit for reference: Pg. 21 - Overwatch Restrictions:
"Its worth pointing out that units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch - we can assume that other events have their full attention. Also note that a unit being charged may only fire Overwatch once per turn."(Emphasis rulebook)

Further going to pg 23 - Who can fight?
Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat.(Emphasis rulebook)

The only thing I can see leading to a rules lawyering situation is that the differentiation between the charge sub-phase and the fight sub-phase. One could argue that you are only locked in combat once the fight phase has begun and they can withhold their snapfire for the second unit since it's still part of the charge sub-phase. However, pg 23 in bold text states that models in base to base are considered locked in combat, and you get to be base to base on the charge.

I would argue with the first option saying once the first unit charges you don't get to Overwatch onto them based on the Who can fight? ruling. Thoughts?


Last edited by Sendreavus on Fri Jul 06 2012, 22:24; edited 2 times in total
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 18:13

SO this pretty much means we can use Coven stuff to assault first and soak all those wounds in waiting for the killy stuff to come?

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 23:07

@Kesharq, you roll to wound pools, and you decide what type of saves or lack there of are resolved first. For same save/gear squads this isnt a biggy, but you might want to save the lances pools, if they have ex lascannon in there Smile

ex: 10 splinter, 4 shredder and 1 dl hit and wounded - random - they have a las in there, but otherwise are the same AS. you first decide to roll for splinters, because of the rapid fire range, 2 fail, shredder, 1-2 fail, and hopefully you now can chose to snipe out the las-marine. He has no AS? wuppy Very Happy

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Kesharq
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 10:13

@enfernux: I did not mean "different weapons in one unit" but "more than one unit shooting at one enemy unit"

for example: 2 venoms and 4 blasterborn shooting at 10 CSM with 1 Melter. so its better to shoot the venoms first then the blasterborn - so your chance to kill the Melter-CSM increase.

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Zaid
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 10:04

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
@Ben_S wrote:
@Siticus the Ancient wrote:
the Liquifier gun ... has 1 in 3 chance of turning termies into soup,

Not exactly. It has a one in three chance of rolling AP 1 or 2, which I suspect is what you refer to, but half of those occasions it will also turn out to be S3 or less. Not saying I'm not a fan, just that you over-state the case a bit. (Mind you, last night I got shot with two of those, both S6 and one AP1 - very nasty when that comes off.)
I think you are thinking of medusae, They have randomised ap and S.

Speaking of Medusae, technically they are also an improved model if they get charged right? I'm a little off on templates since we only have 3 of em in the army and they weren't mentioned specifically in the FAQ so I'm confused if their eyebeams (or Incubi's blood stone or a cronos' spirit syphon) grant the same benefit as the flamer rule. Is it a template specific rule or flmaer specific?
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Plague
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 12:18

@tlronin wrote:

I'd prefer DSing with a squad of Scourges and 4 Haywire Blasters. That's the effect of chucking 4 grenades...
Haywires are sssweet in 6th!

I do believe that the haywire blasters are only 2 per every 5 scourges so you would have to have a squad of 10, and to me that is just too expensive.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 12:56

@Keshark ahh i see, my bad then.

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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 14:46

scourges are expensive, however, they come with a 4+ armor save and shardcarbines, which can lay out a lot of poison shooting. Plus jump packs.

a unit of 10 now, with a mix of haywire and blasters or heat lances could be quite a threat to most things. Add in the carbines and the mobility and they just got better I think.

I am going to experiment with a unit of 10. I have used 2 units of 5 in the past with mixed results. Most of that had to do with deepstriking and when they arrived. However, they were very good at dealing with armor or finishing off small units ( long fangs anyone).

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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 00:53

I played 3 games today. My list roughly was :
Duke
2 squad a dark lance trueborn with venoms
1 squad of Wracks with venom
2 squad of warriors with venoms
2 squads of warriors with raiders
5 Scourge HWB
6 RJB with HL
2 Ravagers
1 Voidraven bomber.


Game 1 was vs Tau. Map had lot of cover but no los blocking terrain. I went second, rolled horribly and lost by turn 4. I missed most of my jinx saves and everything died fast.

Game 2 was vs GK, I tabled him before the end of turn 2 (I went first and he had 2 Stormraven and 2 squads of interceptors still in reserve.

Game 3 was vs Deathwing : He conceded by turn 3.

My conclusion : As far as vehicules are concerned, I see no difference with 5th. If you passes your saves, they live and if you don't they die as soon as they get hit. First turn is still very important for us.

Shooting is still very viable.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 05:03

Being able to do damage in the first round of combat is indeed, very important to us.

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Ebonhart
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 09:52

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't overwatch 1 shot per model at BS1? i don't have the BRB so i can't look it up myself.
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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 09:54

Just free shooting phase, but "snap shots only".
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Ebonhart
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 10:10

ok, now the whining makes more sense. getting rapid shot before assault would be a problem.
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th   What's getting better, and how do we use things with 6th - Page 9 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 10:11

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
@tlronin
Wait.. I thought only flamer template ignored cover. I think blasts still let you claim cover... Did you mean flamer templates instead of blast?

I'll look it up, but I thought only ruïns (or other structures your models are litteratly in) gave cover to blasts. Not when you're behind something. scratch

@Plague wrote:
@tlronin wrote:

I'd prefer DSing with a squad of Scourges and 4 Haywire Blasters. That's the effect of chucking 4 grenades...
Haywires are sssweet in 6th!

I do believe that the haywire blasters are only 2 per every 5 scourges so you would have to have a squad of 10, and to me that is just too expensive.

With the buff to Haywire? Totally worth it bro. Try some games with them, I bet you won't regret it.

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