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 How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?

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Guile22
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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 22:52

I know. I did not say that they could not withstand Overwatch, that they do not have good armour and do not have good stats. I mean that we are not the only army to be affected by the rules changing.
Freelancer411 said that it was clear upon the release of the new rules that some of our units do not have a place, but I am saying that their roles may have changed.

Freelance411, have you played any games as DEldar with the 6th ed rules?

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lonewolf
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 23:34

having been playing 40k though now 6 editions, it's the same every time.
New edition opens the floodgates to the lamenting of whats lost.
At the end of the day evolution in the game is like evolution in life..... evolve or die.
life is change get used to it.
adapt your tactics, change your strategy, think outside the box.

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 00:29

Freelancer - I appreciate your sentiments to save me time and trouble, but I'm a firm believer that units can still have their place and time in certain situations in certain matchups. Granted this does not aid overall play - but I think that tactics and strategies can indeed be worked through hard calculation, patience, practise and ultimately an in-depth understanding. Being 'shot up' is merely one tactic that opponents can employ - there are certainly counters to this system. I intend to discover how to negate or decrease the potency of enemy firepower against our 'weaker' units; for this reason I am going to try to force my wych squads to work (even though I initially felt forlorn about their potential use in 6th ed)

Very true lonewolf and caverash - I agree with both of your points.

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 05:49

You're playing an army of Elves... just be cold an calculating, and cheat... seriously, go 3 or 4 on 1... That's how you should be playing anyway... If you're not going to go 3 or 4 on 1, then bring someone who is so skilled that whatever they're going up against can not withstand their onslaught...

Stop thinking like Mon Keigh, and start thinking like Dark Kin

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 06:23

personally I found no changes. venomspam still works wonderfully, and anyone crying about hull points never played venomspam because the first glance that got through the flickerfields always killed them anyway, atleast we can take a glance and still keep firing (a huge boon imho) The only thing I can see is the death of wyches as assault elements, as it seems they are only good for tying up (assault termies and stuff that cant shoot back) and killing tanks. The difference is people were always shying away from wyches for assault, so I dont see why it really changed anything

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 09:05

@Shadows: maybe i'm an exception, but i was rammin wyches in to everything that was on the field, and now i lost'em Sad

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 14:21

are you assaulting things that shoot back? thats the problem.

Last edition at S3 and having to rely on the Agoniser to win combats, Wyches were only ok at assault. Now that they get shot on the way in, they lower the effectiveness even more.

Just run them into tanks or non-shooty termies, and see the result.

Oh... and you could always put a shadowfield Archon infront of the wych squad when charging, he is going to soak up those wounds, and allows for the delivery of every wych to battle.

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jul 06 2012, 14:48

@Enfernux wrote:
@Shadows: maybe i'm an exception, but i was rammin wyches in to everything that was on the field, and now i lost'em Sad

Meh, 5th editions fault if you are "rammin wyches" everywhere - sounds very orkish now doesn't it.

Perhaps you need to add a little skill to your assaults, can't be an elitist army if you can just ram units blindly. I believe the magic of wyches is still there, get over the changes and become the wych cult guru you once were and then come guide the rest of us to success.

Right now, you ain't sounding very strategically flexible.

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@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

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Braden Campbell
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 16:19

I used to do the same thing with my Archon/Incubi bodyguard unit... that is, throw it willy-nilly at just about everything. And I did this because, in previous rule editions, the target almost always died outright.

Now, however, I have discovered that I have to be a bit more... selective... about what this assault unit goes after. Space Marine and Battle Sisters whom it outnumbers? Why, yes, don't mind if I do. Terminator units? No, thank you. I choose life. And to punish you with dissintegrators until you learn to not bring such heavy armour onto my field of battle Wink

Just as the use of Heavy Cavalry changed when Fantasy came out with its latest rule changes (they used to just steam roll pretty much whatever they hit, and were thus termed a "point and click" unit), we must likewise re-evaluate which of our units are best suited to engaging certain things now.

Also, WE'RE PIRATES AND BULLIES, PEOPLE! That means we routinely beat up on those who are too weak to adaquately defend themselves, and we flee from those who can. If you can't get into that headspace, then you really should be playing Imperial Guard or somesuch.

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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 16:22

Well, this thread really didn't become a tactica I thought it was. Became more of a rant than anything - off to the Discussion Forum with this!

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@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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Guile22
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 17:55

So, i've played some games of 6th against MEQ. I think the tactics have definitely changed, but there are still good useful tactics to be found in the DE army.

Wyches as tar pits/CC squads are EXTINCT. They can work as 5 man haywire suicide squads in venoms, but thats probably it. As vehicles will die very easy now, wyches will find themselves out in the open way too often. And overwatch is death as i'm seeing lots of armies (smartly) take flamers which is D3 wych deaths per flamer on overwatch (flamers don't need 6's).

Venoms fall apart very easy now, raiders can still have some survivability due to 3 HP and Jink saves.

Contrary to previous posts, Wracks have NOT been nerfed. They have essentially a 5+ invulnerable (FnP) against any guns not S8, and liquefiers kick even more &^%# now that wracks can use them on overwatch against assaults as they sit on an objective in ruins/forest.

I actually think Talos is a lot better now, it can take TL Haywire blaster and can find cover easily enough to hang around objectives and pop vehicles with ease, hitting them with the HW blaster and then charging with SMASH rule making it S10. Get him a couple pain tokens and he will be charging vehicles at S8 with full attacks.

Scourges with haywire blasters and Jet Bikes are good units now, bikes getting a perma 4+ cover save and 3+ when moving flat out.

I think Grotesques are actually better now, if you took a 4 man squad with Urien Rakath they would have 3 pain tokens (each has 1 plus Rakath's ability) making them fearless and for 5 points a model (rakath upgrade) they are base S6, so S7 on the charge = wrecked vehicles (+1 S for furious charge from 2nd pain token), and their T5 means that FnP is an invulnerable save for them. Much better survivability and Rakath can accept challenges and hold his own well thanks to the clone field and ichor gauntlet (plus his T5 makes his FnP an invulnerable save).

Void Ravens are good, not so much razorwings (can get destroyed with rapid fire bolter snap fire, trust me).

Warriors are OK, as long as you keep them in the raider with splinter racks and rapid fire at targets.

If you are taking 5 man wych/haywire suicide squads, talos or Voidraven (both in 2000 point game with extra Force slot), scourges with haywire blasters, and grotesques who charge at S7, you have plenty of flexible anti-tank. This will allow you to take 2 ravagers loaded with disintegrators which is DEATH to terminators and MEQ!

Tactics have to change, I haven't figured it all out by a long shot, but there is hope. Pain armies are still viable!


Last edited by Guile22 on Sat Jul 07 2012, 18:02; edited 4 times in total
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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 17:56

I think it might be just a bit early for a tactica, but I do like the idea of putting ideas out there and then haveing several of us playtest it out across the different meta.

Locally, there area lot of Grey Knights, Space Wolves and Blood angels. Lots of them. Not much in the way of IG.

One thing that comes to mind, in terms of a tactica, is the use of Madrakes.

well yes they do tend to suck for the most part, but they do have a shooting attack out to 18 inches. If I remember correctly,it is assault 2 pinning.

While this may be a pie in the sky kind of idea, pinning is not a bad thing, but as means of suppressing fire, say if you were coming out of a WWP, then you seriously limit the amount of shooting that you take waiting to assault.

Also, if pinned, you have gone to ground, which means if you pin a unit near the unit you are assaulting, then that unit does not get to come in and assault you before you are ready.

Anyhoo, if you were to play the denial game, a big unit of mandrakes parked on an enemy objective, with a whole lot of pinning shots, could make it exceeding difficult to take the object without putting an enormous amount of firepower into them. Which I will note is a lot of firepower not going into your other units.

Does it work, I dunno. I think it might just be a bit more effective this edition than last.

At the very least, with the new vehicle rules more commonly called " Oh no, my venom can take only 2 hits now instead of 1 like last edition before it explodes. The world is over" we might be able to give up a trueborn unit or two inplace of some very nifty fast attack slots and not lose any effectiveness.

Its a thought I feel is worth exploring.

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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 20:18

I routinely used two squads of nine wyches in Raiders, each with a Haemonculus, who they would leave behind when they disembarked. Then they'd start haywiring everything in sight, at least shaking or stunning something on the first turn, then chasing after vehicles to finish them off. They're even better at that now, so I'll still be bringing the lovely ladies to every game. The clearest victories I've had have been when I used the wyches specifically as anti mech, and only engaged infantry with them if they couldn't make it to a vehicle. I was lucky with them the first couple of times I used them, wiping out squads on the charge a couple of times, but have come to appreciate that in most cases, this doesn't happen. Wyches are much more reliably anti vehicle than a Ravager, and have more flexibility too.

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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jul 07 2012, 21:59

Looks like my 4 incubi with Vect in a venom just got nerfed, how didnt i see this coming Rolling Eyes

I'm still going to try it out before i pass judgment, even though vect was a cc monster i still never charged a unit of TH/SS termies last edition and wont be doing this edition either.

I'll probably have to replace it with Baron + beast unit.

The only viable build i can see being used with DE is the classic venom spam with flyers added in.
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 07:43

I think the biggest playstyle changer for me is the fact some Overwatch units just completely dominate us.

FNP or not, there's no reliable way to shut up a unit of Lootas behind a Aegis line unless you have the grace of God.

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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 07:47

Quote :
FNP or not, there's no reliable way to shut up a unit of Lootas behind a Aegis line unless you have the grace of God.

^this, I see orks on the regular, and the best way to deal with lootas is a headlong rush into them with some elite squad... Lootas are now going to cause me no end of trouble...

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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 12:54

@Ruke wrote:
Quote :
FNP or not, there's no reliable way to shut up a unit of Lootas behind a Aegis line unless you have the grace of God.

^this, I see orks on the regular, and the best way to deal with lootas is a headlong rush into them with some elite squad... Lootas are now going to cause me no end of trouble...

have you tried parking in a raider with warriors, cannons, shredder and racks?
or taking them out with allies...say scorpions? or a jetseer council with psy-shreak and a lot of destructolocks?
there are a lot of options to exploit, sadly not most of them is assaulting Sad well exept for mandrakes, for they have invul saves, as do jetseers, maybe ordnance barrage to ignore aegis...well i think that it itgnores it...i'll have to check on that Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 13:04

I would say it has changed are playstyle of being a shooty then finish them off in assault to a pure shooty army now.
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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?  - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 14:07

you need to send in 2 units to assault.

Personally, I would shoot them up as much as I could with venoms before sending in the assault.

a unit of wracks with a unit of beasts or wyches with a archon or character or incubi would probably do the trick.

It would take some maneuvering, but the wracks go in first, take all the shots, then sendi n the second unit.

Also, if you can get close with a liquifier gun, that will certainly reduce the numbers and make the assault more likely to succeed.

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