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 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar

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Loubaddon
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 02:45

Upon further inspection of the rules I retract my previous state on the bomber. Apologies!

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thelordhellion
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 06:08

Currently my evaluation is that TH/SS termies have actually been NERFED.......now, before everyone disagrees, please listen to my argument

power weapons being AP3 means that most of the time termies will get armour saves from melee. 3++ save isn't much of a difference.

assault termies may survive more against shooting, but they cannot fire back. Shooty termies can wipe our darklight units with their heavy weapons but assault can't.

also, thunder hammers are similar to power fists apart from the extra slowing ablility. assault termies can't pack chainfists.

so yeah, i think its arguable.......

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Erikjust
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 07:12

I wonder which army got the most Nerfed by the new rules.

Its a shame that Dark Eldar got some of its units Nerfed but as long as we can still play the army and win games it should be fun to try the new rules.

It will also be interesting to see how Thor will change his Dark Eldar Tactica with the new rules.

Seems that he will have to change Hellions amongst others from being Utility: Poor to either being Utility: Semi-Competitive or maybe actually Utility: Competitive
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Firdeth
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 07:25

I'm just very happy that when I restarted my army I went with a Kaballite army and not a Coven as the latter play-style is seriously hit with a nerf-powerfist. Assault just is a nightmare now for us and let's lament the loss of our WWP's.

I think Kaballite lists have been given some boosts actually and the cons and pros even out nicely.

So I could be really happy that my build is still very viable but it does annoy me as I'm afraid we will once again see mono-build armies ie. every one plays the exact same list. It's what I always disliked about GW the most; the "oh look my army but in different colors" effect.

Anyway I'm still uncertain if our FF's are truly useless now. I mean the jink is just a coversave whereas the FF is invulnerable. Just overpriced that's all but if I have a few points lying around to spare I will still throw one on my Razorwing or Ravager for survivability. I have been disgustingly lucky with my FF saves.

edit - I definitely will use my Scourges with HWB's more often now.
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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 08:11

@Firdeth wrote:
So I could be really happy that my build is still very viable but it does annoy me as I'm afraid we will once again see mono-build armies ie. every one plays the exact same list. It's what I always disliked about GW the most; the "oh look my army but in different colors" effect.

Well i guess in a game that would be perfectly balanced, you would not have that, but that you would have chess XD the more different armies there are, and the more options to choose, the more complicated it is to balance it all out.
That does not say that i think the FAQs are the best they could do, but it is up to the gamers to choose, do i want to take an army to win all my games, or to i want an army that i like. sometimes it's the same, more often it is not.

And i for one will not play the spamming game.

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Setomidor
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 08:19

@Siticus the Ancient wrote:
Well you were wrong. It's all about Necrons, baby. Guess which army has tons of AP2 melee attacks? Guess which army can drown everyone in a mass of glances? ... [snip]

I guess that means that Terminator-spammers will have a really hard time against Necrons, so maybe a Necron-heavy meta-game means less Terminators to deal with?

Of course, that also probably means there will be a lot of Necron players about, so how to build a DE army that is good against Necrons? (I've heard some people mentioning Night Vision as a trait that helps us beat Necrons, it would be nice if someone more experienced could elaborate on that Smile ).
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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 09:27

@Setomidor wrote:
(I've heard some people mentioning Night Vision as a trait that helps us beat Necrons, it would be nice if someone more experienced could elaborate on that Smile ).

We totaly ignore the night. seriously. we ignore it.


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NiteOwl
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 09:41

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@Setomidor wrote:
(I've heard some people mentioning Night Vision as a trait that helps us beat Necrons, it would be nice if someone more experienced could elaborate on that Smile ).

We totaly ignore the night. seriously. we ignore it.


Which will mean that they can't shoot at you if you are more than 36 inch away, you will get a 2+ cover save if you are between 24 to 36 inch from the enemy and +1 to your cover save if you are between 12 to 24 inch from the enemy. This will be excellent
for us tiny elfs alien
Safe deployment by other means.
Just have to roll those 4+ to activate the night fight Razz
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 12:04

Most Necron ap2 melee isn't that great against termies. Praetorians have 2 attacks on charge, i1 and no ++ saves, so the bets they can hope against TH/SS Termies is mutual annihilation (and more likely they kill a coule, then get pounded to dust). Lychguard and Royal Court would do better, but the former is slow and vulnerable to shooting, while the latter is ridiculously expensive. Overlord in a barge and Destroyer Lord with Wraiths might be able to beat even TH/SS termies, tho.

As for us, throwing Hellions and Beats at them and drowning them in saves should work. 15-20 Hellions are likely to kill 5man Terminator unit without many losses. Hellions and Baron seem pretty good, really. Not only are Hellions excellent for grabbing objectives late in the game (you can't hold objectives in vehicles anymore, limiting the objective capping ability of our vehicle-mounted squads), they can do a scary amount of damage by shooting and then assaulting (if you move 6'' or less, you can also do impact hits on charge for a bit of extra damage). A Helliarch can get a power spear (s4 ap3 on charge) for 5 points, which is a pretty good deal. Overwatch hurts them somewhat (10 marines, assuming 1 has missile launcher and 1 flamer, kill about 2 hellions that have defensive grenades but no fnp), but overall they seem strong. Note to self: buy 15 Hellions. Only problem is, I have a hard time fitting Baron, Hellionblob and Eldrad in the same list. Might downgrade Eldrad to jetbike Farseer and have him join some Reavers (or maybe even the Hellions). Not as good as Eldrad but slightly cheaper, and doesn't necessiate a footslogging unit to babysit him. You can actually use most of the powers in divination and telepathy on the same turn as you turbo boost you bike, as they are used at the beginning of movement phase, not shooting.

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ttn89
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PostSubject: AP in the power weapons   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 02 2012, 21:28

All I have to say is the Master of the Blades is back in the game. You want something good that came out of close combat it had to be partly that Drazhar is now not going to be ousted by power weapons as easily and can use those Demi-Klaives to his advantage. But I do agree that the losing the 12inch movement of the raider disembarking running and assaulting goes terrible for our speed and deadliness with the wyche units. They made them a lot slower and more prone to death and more so with the lack of ability to assault out of a webway portal and the "snapshot." The wyches won't even have a chance without having a pain token in the beginning. But hey "snapshot" does help out the Kabalite Warriors.
To me no Dark Eldar player will have a chance without the Razorwing Jetfighter or the Voidraven Bomber. You will just get the crap shot out of you. But I think a big plus is that people will now have to use more troops because the vehicles will die big time from heywire grenades and heywire grenade launchers. Glancing now is great and plus raiders and ravagers have three hull plates from what I have heard. I do not have the money to get the new book yet, but I am listening to the reviews.
Now The phsycer rules are cool, but are way too overpowered and it sucks for our dark kin. We are going to have to have help from our allies, our lighter kin the Eldar and use their farseers and heck ya give me one of those wraithlords with double flamers by by Imperial Guard and Orks!
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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 00:30

Terminators have always been a problem, and honestly, things that used to reliably kill them still do. (Monstrous Creatures/Swarmlords) I've seen standard Termies receive an Incubus assault, make a few key saves, and then annihilate the unit in 5th edition. TH/SS have always been too much for Dark Eldar CC specialists, and probably always will be.

I'm running a game tonight to see how the flavor changes, against the worst match up I can think of: Black Templars. (Talk about a big FAQ)
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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 03 2012, 01:18

I would comment that, it seems to me, DE are still faster than other units.

My thoughts are that while we lose the move 12 and jump out, we still get to move and jump out and assault with a reroll on the assault. Not to mention the opportunity to shoot before you assault.

Pretty much everyone else moves 6 and then steps out to shoot...what. I don't really see us getting out of our vehicles unless we know we are going to assault so... My point is, I'll take the shooting and hope to survive the explosion, then assault what shot us in the first place. One explosion is preferable to a tac squad rapid firing into my precious wyches or warriors in the open.

I can't tell you how many times my dice wiffed on the run roll and my wyches were left sitting out in the open looking pretty, and then a turn later were looking pretty dead.

I think what we are going to find is the new rules will give us a little more consistency and less randomness.

My preferred means of attacking was to hit an assault I knew I would win, and pretty much anything involving termies was a lose-lose. So I would shoot the tar out of them until there were only a couple left, and then hit them in CC if I had a sizeable unit nearby to do it with.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 00:26

^ Exactly, something I've been saying since the rumours came out, assaulting a unit of terminators (with, let's not forget 'the best personal armour in the galaxy') with our fragile units is foolish, especially wyches (they are a troops unit after all, are they really going to be able to take out an elite unit like that? They sure as hell shouldn't be able to!)

So shoot them lots (trust me on this, a dissie ravager is the best option) and then assault when there's only a couple left. We're Dark Eldar after all, don't fight fair!

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Venkh
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 00:50

I agree that termies should be shot and that we have to tools to shoot em.

The other thing weighing against assault is the pile in by I step rule.

I dont knoiw about you guys but a lot of my charges in 5th were pretty much in by an inch. The immediate 6" pile in was a godsend as it brought many more enemy models into contact so more of my models could fight.

Now however, those unengaged enemy models wont be going anywhere till their I step

This actually has the effect of penalising high I troops, you can only attack in your own I step and the guys that strike last are most likely to get their attacks in.

I wouldnt mind but high I is suposed to be an unqualified benefit.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 04:16

I have never relied on killing termies in comabt and I always just shot the S@it out of them with blasters and poision.

Dark eldar have always been really fragile and they still are.
BUT have any of you noticed how easy it is to kill Rhinos now?
Other armies also got buffed and de-buffed in certain areas just like the DE did. so NO Dark Eldar are not nerfed. EVERY Army is effected by theses rules.

If Transport Vehicles are easier to kill then maybe people will start taking fewer transports and rely on other means to close the gap. If my opponents are not in there vehicles then I can shoot the heck out of anybody.

Vehicles now more or less reflect there points cost. a 35point rhino shouldn't be able to survive 10-12 lance shots and yet they used to do it all the time. now a Rhino can actually be taken out easier. and I can get to all the squishy stuff on the inside.

Also I love haywire grenades even more now. wyches hit walkers and vehicles much easier now. and strip them of hull points in no time at all! :-) Plus you can throw a haywire grenade before you assault!
I like the sound of that

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 04:28

I think it is time to stop theorizing and prophesying and get your arses to the game tables.

Try this out, I am starting to read real battle reports and it is not as bad as some of us make it out to be. Get out there and find a way to win, back up your doom and gloom accusations and then come back and tell us.

Really, nothing you guys are saying is happening at the magnitude I am reading here, I am reading nothing close to it from first hand reports.

Let's get those games in and make this forum, this website, the solution to 6th edition - I want this website to be the real Dark City of Commorragh & Dark Eldar enlightenment!!!

Who's with me?

Now if I can get a T-shirt with that awesome Dark City logo on it I will advertise it at the next GT on Aug. 4th & 5th. Team Dark City anyone?

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 04:39

@Grumpy Kwi wrote:
I think it is time to stop theorizing and prophesying and get your arses to the game tables.

Try this out, I am starting to read real battle reports and it is not as bad as some of us make it out to be. Get out there and find a way to win, back up your doom and gloom accusations and then come back and tell us.

Exactly. You are my hero Grumpy.

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Azrael
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 04:46

@Grumpy Kwi wrote:
I think it is time to stop theorizing and prophesying and get your arses to the game tables.

Try this out, I am starting to read real battle reports and it is not as bad as some of us make it out to be. Get out there and find a way to win, back up your doom and gloom accusations and then come back and tell us.

Really, nothing you guys are saying is happening at the magnitude I am reading here, I am reading nothing close to it from first hand reports.

Let's get those games in and make this forum, this website, the solution to 6th edition - I want this website to be the real Dark City of Commorragh & Dark Eldar enlightenment!!!

Who's with me?

Now if I can get a T-shirt with that awesome Dark City logo on it I will advertise it at the next GT on Aug. 4th & 5th. Team Dark City anyone?

Give me two weeks and I'll have my army ready to start doing battles. Unless you want some 500pt Grey Knight Vs Necrons Vs BA reports those I can give mostly any day of the week that ends in "Y" and I'm working.

Edit: Forgot to say I like your attitude. Research and Hypothesis' can only get you so far before field trials are needed to confirm the data.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 04:51

Quote :
Now if I can get a T-shirt with that awesome Dark City logo on it I will advertise it at the next GT on Aug. 4th & 5th. Team Dark City anyone?

Great idea, I approve!

Seriously, can we get some t-shirts? All black with the Dark City logo across the back? I would be all over that. XD

BTW, anyone have any word on the dice?

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Setomidor
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 07:28

Feel free to link any good 6th ed reports you might find
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 08:24

Quote :
I think it is time to stop theorizing and prophesying and get your arses to the game tables.

Try this out, I am starting to read real battle reports and it is not as bad as some of us make it out to be. Get out there and find a way to win, back up your doom and gloom accusations and then come back and tell us.

Agreed.
Played a game today vs. BA and literally killed everything on the table while capturing 2 VPs.

Wrote up my first impressions here:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2012/07/6th-ed-first-impressions.html

But I can see us having a great time if we play tactically and correctly.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 08:39

Thanks for your report Herobear, very interesting and informative Smile

Do you think Raiders/Ravagers are better or worse off then before? I was kind of hoping to avoid having half a dussin of those expensive-hard to paint models in my list Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 08:51

@ nomic
@Mindless_Murder wrote:
So, after thinking over a bit of 6ed, I think I have an idea. I know mandrales are typically the laughing stock of our codex, but with the new rules, I can see using em. Now I need someone to back me up ( or possibly knock the stupid outa me), but is it not that bad of an option? Now, this is the one stipulation that I'm attempting to unravel, but aren't we able to deploy our units with I.c. units of another army? If so think about this, run baron and Hamilton in our force org HQ slot. Run eldrad under eldar HQ. Start eldrad with mãndrake company, then pull the old baron, wrack / hami hellions pt switch. Switcheroo, meet mandrake + eldrad, leave a pt, shazam! Lol, just a thought anyway. Input daka

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 09:06

Well you are right about IC with our units, but that only works with BB. And they can not be put inside a transporter. But the rule for infiltration clearly states, well in the german BRB anyway - the last sentence of infiltration - , that an IC can not join an infiltrating unit, if it does not have the infiltration rule. so no eldrad or heamis with mandraks...

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 09:30

@Venkh wrote:
This actually has the effect of penalising high I troops, you can only attack in your own I step and the guys that strike last are most likely to get their attacks in.

I wouldnt mind but high I is suposed to be an unqualified benefit.

This does seem to be an issue. With random charge distances, even if you start off <6" from the opposition, with a poor roll, even if you get into combtat at all, only a few of your models will reach. I don't have the rules but I assume that if you're not in btb with something on your I step then you can't attack? In which case our models are left standing around losing their attacks until slower moving models join the fight. Seems a bit wierd to me!

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