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 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar

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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 09:46

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Venkh wrote:
This actually has the effect of penalising high I troops, you can only attack in your own I step and the guys that strike last are most likely to get their attacks in.

I wouldnt mind but high I is suposed to be an unqualified benefit.

This does seem to be an issue. With random charge distances, even if you start off <6" from the opposition, with a poor roll, even if you get into combtat at all, only a few of your models will reach. I don't have the rules but I assume that if you're not in btb with something on your I step then you can't attack? In which case our models are left standing around losing their attacks until slower moving models join the fight. Seems a bit wierd to me!

not quite. at the start of you ini step, you pill in 3", than you need to be in B2B with an enemy model OR 2" away from a model of you squad that is in B2B with an enemy.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 09:48

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Venkh wrote:
This actually has the effect of penalising high I troops, you can only attack in your own I step and the guys that strike last are most likely to get their attacks in.

I wouldnt mind but high I is suposed to be an unqualified benefit.

This does seem to be an issue. With random charge distances, even if you start off <6" from the opposition, with a poor roll, even if you get into combtat at all, only a few of your models will reach. I don't have the rules but I assume that if you're not in btb with something on your I step then you can't attack? In which case our models are left standing around losing their attacks until slower moving models join the fight. Seems a bit wierd to me!

not quite. at the start of you ini step, you pill in 3", than you need to be in B2B with an enemy model OR 2" away from a model of you squad that is in B2B with an enemy.

Okay, not quite as bad as I thought but does still seem to be more of a benefit to lower I models, who just hang at the back until they step forward to swing their power fists, thunderhammers etc.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 09:53

I had issues with Pile-In moves this evening. Mostly I had issues with Canoptek Wraiths this evening, which are disgusting against all of our assault units. Mainly, if you Pile-In directly into a Whip Coil, do you jump from Initiative whatever to Initiative 1, or keep fighting in the same step? I advocated the former, just to contain the insanity that are Wraiths, but we had no answers, and it didn't end up being pivotal. 3 units of 5 Wraiths just ran at me and did not die. I know they have been around for a while, but Hammer of Wrath really pushes Wraiths and the Chariot Barge over the top. We don't have swag of that magnitude. The Looted Farseer is starting to look really good to try and shoot a jump infantry horde in a timely fashion.

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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 10:02

@Count Adhemar wrote:

Okay, not quite as bad as I thought but does still seem to be more of a benefit to lower I models, who just hang at the back until they step forward to swing their power fists, thunderhammers etc.

sure if you place them away far enough, you can wait till it is your turn, but if you are more than 3" away, you are not able to attack anymore, and the CC ends without you hitting. mind, the units are then still locked in combat.

CaptainBalroga: wraiths are pretty sick as it is, but remember if they want to use their hammer of wrath, they can only move 6" in the movement phase. but still whip coils are pretty good.

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Chaeril
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 17:34

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
So shoot them lots (trust me on this, a dissie ravager is the best option) and then assault when there's only a couple left. We're Dark Eldar after all, don't fight fair!

Ahhh how refreshing, somebody saying something good about Disintegrators!
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 18:02

@Tires i have been using disints for 3-4 months now Razz and i WAS saying a lot that they are good, esp vs MEQ and TEQ. They also work realy good vs hard opponents like say...grots? Smile what they wound wont be saved unless they have cover - this rule stands for everything though.
They are our nutcracker, for they crack the hardest of nuts, like shootinators for ex. They also have a better chance to open up thundernator, being ap2 - as do implosion missiles. The only problem for us is wraithguard, whom we must take down with big gunz...or a lot of shooting, for disints wound them on 5+, although negating armor save, so unless someone has a conlock with them, what you wound, you kill.
The other big problem i wthink will be MCs, but an aggoniser will make short work of that, assuming someone will take that being only ap3 y'know Razz

Duno much about wraiths, for i usually decimated them with a lot of shooting and then cleaning up with incu. I think i only lost once to newcrons afro

on the concept of lower I mods: to us, mostly anything is lower I, maybe except banshees on the charge...but who uses banshees?! Sure they all have PW, but what good does that do vs T4+?? Nothing? Bingo. They should be the ones to hack termies, but are just to low a strength to do that. So we dont have to fear them i think.
So virtually who can have lower I in squads of already lower I enemies? Powerfist, thunderhammer, halberd etc.
Whats the problem with these? They are USUALLY carried by ICs or squad leaders, who can be killed very fast by calling them out for a little old fashion behind the farm brawl...except Yarik, for he gets back on his feet on a 4+ Razz
The only time you wont see low Is hanging back is with thundernators, and if you assault them...well dont make me write out what a fail idea that is, since we dont negate 2+ and in every other case they either cant be in the back lines because of the rules, or they are made not being able to stay in the back lines by chalange.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 18:12

i feel the dark eldar are going to be turning into a shooting army. i all ways loved using the duke in 5th edition but now in the 6th i feel even better about using him. put him in a raider with trueborn, splinter cannon, and shard carbines and shoot the hell out of everyone. also im thinking of putting a heame in a group with a liquifer gun and with the over watch get D3 insta hits wouldnt sound to bad, let anlone the group he is in has feel no pain. kinda feeling like putting a heame in a group with duke beacuse to use the shard carbines ur gonna have to be close anyway, give them that D3 hits from the flamer and FnP sounds kinda nasty if the boat would go down. and i think terminators would be easily avoidable with disintergator cannons and tons of shots from venoms and other places
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 18:24

146 8 trueborn with 2 cannons and 6 caras - 18" only Razz - your greatest potency is for 18", and i think costs to much for +10 shots. Warriors of 8 with one cannon costs 82 and has +2 shots. The rest of the points can go into night shield, splinter racks, EAS
64 pts for +10 shots...no buy.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 18:37

I had been thinking the same thing about Dissies Enfernux, especially on close range shock prow raiders they might just be excellent support weapons for the assault infantry?
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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 18:52

I would like to point out that nothing has changed from 5th to 6th edition with regard to powerfists and thunderhammers, they were always kept back and swinging. Unless of course they were and IC, but still.

Assaulting Thunderhamer termies was always a bad idea, even with power weapons.

But with that said, I don't think its the end of the world. Incubi were seldom taken, for the most part. Awesome models, great fluff, but no grenades hurt them.

What I see is the DE list being more synergistic to function properly. Assaults need to be supported and prepared and jump infantry is going to be a new wrinkle to deal with, but some good shooting can fix that problem.

It also seems to me that the new shooting rules and wound allocation work wonders for us. Sit back with night sheilds and just pound what ever gets close. I think every army took a major nerf with that rule except us because we have NS and they do not.

Haywire, which we have in abundance, is just going to own armor. Meaning we are leily to see more foot lists, and venoms, splinter cannons and massed splinter rifles will just dominate. Soften them up and THEN hit them in CC where we can easily dominate against fewer numbers.

Splinter carbines for Scourges and Trueborn, OK well maybe not trueborn, could be just devastating. I've done some serious play with Scourges, and about half the time they were pretty solid, the other half, only so-so. But a little boost here and there and increase the unit size to 10. 30 poison shots or 4 haywire or blaster shots and 18 poison shots is a bad day for anyone.


I tend to agree there is going to be more shooting in the game, but I typically ran a balanced list and so I personally am not terribly affected, but I am excited to see the 45 hellions I bought early on actually have a chance at being viable. My fingers are crossed. LOL

ANyhoo, these are just some random thoughts in general

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 19:12

Quote :
Assaulting Thunderhamer termies was always a bad idea, even with power weapons.

We're not talking about just TH/SS Terminators here man, now shooty Termies cause just as many problems. If I see Termies with just a 5+ Invul, I would gladly combo-charge 2 squads of Wyches and an Archon with 3 Agonizers into the unit. Now I think twice, even 3 times before I can launch the assault.

Not only do you take Overwatch fire just for charging, but you also have to deal with normal armor saves. That sucks terribly.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 19:14

I think Lelith really goes up with challenge rules. All those Sergeants with power fists that was her trouble - this threat is just gone - challenge him and either wack him or sent him away.
If there isnt challenge and she catches wound - just send it away via 2+ Look Out, mam!
Ignore Saves - so dont care about 2+.
Lowers atacks in challenge mode, where it matters most.

Bloodbrides unit with Lelith became a real death star unit, capable of tearing just anything in close combat, anything if tooled right.

Overwatch - Lelith can tank it. Challenges - Lelith owns them.
Any armor or dreadnaughts - melts. MCs goes down to agoniser.
Invul + FnP will tank a lot of power weapons wounds.
Shootie Termies will go down to that unit, there is always that Sergeant there, and we can always chose to expel this valuable member from overall power of the unit to wack them.

I heard cries how Wych Cult doesnt matter anymore - i think thats quite opposite.

Now is the time when idea is truly playable.


Last edited by Azdrubael on Wed Jul 04 2012, 19:32; edited 1 time in total
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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 19:23

HEROBEAR wrote:
Quote :
Assaulting Thunderhamer termies was always a bad idea, even with power weapons.

We're not talking about just TH/SS Terminators here man, now shooty Termies cause just as many problems. If I see Termies with just a 5+ Invul, I would gladly combo-charge 2 squads of Wyches and an Archon with 3 Agonizers into the unit. Now I think twice, even 3 times before I can launch the assault.

Not only do you take Overwatch fire just for charging, but you also have to deal with normal armor saves. That sucks terribly.

but isn't overwatch just one shot needing a 6 to hit? I'll have to check my rule book.

True about termies, across the board, but even before charging 5 termies was risky at best, with a full wych unit or 2.

My preference is to shoot them, reduce them to 2 or 3, then hit them in CC.

My main point is I am looking more at the changes as an across the board point of view, then determining the impact on DE. For the most part I see positives, and few negatives. Personally, I think we will give Necrons and everyone else a good thrashing once we get the hang of it. I think DE are going to get better.

FNP does not really bother me that much, given the number of power armor or terminators i regularly had to deal with that had FNP in tournys.

new movement and shooting rules really do benefit us with aerial assault, and wound allocation is also a bonus. Those melta and plasma guns won't be leading the charge anymore, especially when they will be removed as the first casualty to our shooting from paper airplanes.


Anyhoo, more of my thoughts

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 19:42

@GAR so far i assaulted 1 wych and 1 5man incu+ an archon at termies, and they wrecked them. Now, i cant do that, for a klaive is only ap3. Agoniser also.
So no, i didnt think much before charging termies and 90%+ times i came out good. Now since they roll for 2+ insted of 3++, their chances of dying goes downhill, my incu cant do squat, so i wont charge them any time soon. Haywire the landraider to death with wyches, then leave the termies stranded to footslug, stay out of range and poof, they are nothing less then a walking wall of points. Just dont shoot at them, for they will survive a lot of punishment.
@Azdrubael no. You wont hack hammernators with agonisers only lelith. But one hit and she is sent to a haem for regeneration. And since they are the toughest to crack, it is a solid way to talk about how we could and how we cant now open those bulky tin cans.
RE @GAR what positiv do you see in losing power weapon potency? What good is our main assault and scoring choice being voulnerable to assault? What good are our glass kannons becoming glass rifles? What good is it that we lose threat range? What good is it that we must equip our transports better in order to supply our new gunboats? What good do you see in our army losing 4 potentials in the thing we did best in 5th, and thats assault.
The good side: flyers, haywire. Heck, i even played with my friend, who has a 6th ed and i played with his eldar, he with my dark eldar and vice versa, and both times DE lost to CWE. When i was playing CWE i obliterated the DE in turn 3, when i was with DE, i only lost by 1 kp. Then we played a nother game with new lists, me with DE, him with CWE, and draw. Until 6th, i massacred our cousins, usually winning with 5+ kp leads. Before i could crack open a tank very good, now, i can still do it, but glancing it to death is more easy, so we dont need lances.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 19:45

Quote :
You wont hack hammernators with agonisers only lelith.
Where exactly did i suggest to assault Hammenators?

Thats assault is probably should be done with a shooting support, a beast unit and maybe this deathstar.

You dont get her worth, she can send away that sergeant or enter the duel she will won, most likely.
That one hit and bang we can reroll with challenge rules. He must fail this 1 or 2, just as we do, but we strike first and have 11 atacks, against his 2. 2 atacks that hits only on 5+, and saved on 3+.
And if the sucker refuses she can safely use her ignoring atacks and send all the wounds into the squad.

Quote :
we dont need lances.
For now maybe. What will happen when people will paint their Techmarines and place some Land Raiders on the tabletop?
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeWed Jul 04 2012, 19:55

@Azdrubael wrote:

For now maybe. What will happen when people will paint their Techmarines and place some Land Raiders on the tabletop?

Then they cant repair a wrecked vehicle, only an immo or a wd, so no worries Razz

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 01:26

@Enfernux wrote:

@GAR so far i assaulted 1 wych and 1 5man incu+ an archon at termies, and they wrecked them. Now, i cant do that, for a klaive is only ap3. Agoniser also.
So no, i didnt think much before charging termies and 90%+ times i came out good. Now since they roll for 2+ insted of 3++, their chances of dying goes downhill, my incu cant do squat, so i wont charge them any time soon. Haywire the landraider to death with wyches, then leave the termies stranded to footslug, stay out of range and poof, they are nothing less then a walking wall of points. Just dont shoot at them, for they will survive a lot of punishment.

I was the opposite. My assaults usually ended badly, so I avoided termies if I had a choice. Shooting took a little longer, but if I am sitting back out of their shooting range, then those termies cannot hurt me. If I had to assault them, I would usually try to throw 2 wych units and my succubus or Vect at them, but that is a lot of points, close to double the termies, so they should win. The sadly they would get shot with every other gun in the army and then poof, my 500 to 700 so odd points is gone after killing 250 points. Not a good trade off, in my opinion.


@Enfernux wrote:

RE @GAR what positiv do you see in losing power weapon potency? What good is our main assault and scoring choice being voulnerable to assault? What good are our glass kannons becoming glass rifles? What good is it that we lose threat range? What good is it that we must equip our transports better in order to supply our new gunboats? What good do you see in our army losing 4 potentials in the thing we did best in 5th, and thats assault.

Power weapons are still potent, just not against terminators or a few 2+ units in the game.

I disagree with them being main assault and scoring. I used a mix of warriors and wyches, Warriors shooting supports wyches few assaults.
Wyches are not vulenrable to assault, but you can't just throw them at anything. But let me ask this, would you send wyches by themselves against terminators? I wouldn't if I had a choice. Incubi, when I used them seldom paid off, they usually got shot to death after exiting their wreck raider, or were shot to death after slapping around a unit of marines. They just did not survive once they were not engaged. Against termies, they were OK, but termies were seldom without some character who would drag several down and combat was draw or minor win. Not ideal. All I did was trade points for points.

Splinter rifles now shoot much further than before. that is a plus.

FNP is not affected by power weapons. We just got a lot more survivable against GKs.

Threat range was never guaranteed to begin with. SO a few inches give or take, meh. But now I get shoot before I even begin to think about assaulting, so I can inflict a few wounds before I ever roll dice to determine how far I can assault whereas before I had to run, and the run was hit or miss. I see this as a reasonable tradeoff. I'll take very chance I get to inflict more wounds be it by shooting or CC, and when we had to run to make assault range, a lot of times I did not make it far enough and my wyches were toast.

Don't get me wrong, I love the assault phase, always have, but moreso I want my assaults to be successful, so I include a fair amount of shooting to prep my targets for assault. Nothing to me has changed, it has only gotten better, from my point of view. More shooting means my assault does not have to be completely overwhelming, it can be mediocre and still be effective enough to accomplish my objectives.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 01:55

In my mind, DE never did assault better than shooting, quite the opposite actually. I tended to run a single assault unit (incubi and vect) as a clean up crew after my shooting had made the target combat ineffective. I will still run this most of the time but maybe sub in drazhar over vect. We are to fragile for protracted combats so this method made sense to me,

It's what I am taking to the ETC in August as well

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 02:03

Azdrubael - you've given me hope my friend! I shall attempt to try this unit next week for my first game! Very Happy Lelith + 8 Hekatrix's with 2 shardnets and a haemie with sniper rifle at the start (he then leaves the unit once disembarked) that ought to catch something right!?

On that note, if I were to take the full 9 Hekatrix Bloodbrides + Lelith and have the haemie leave them on turn 1 (and the wyches leap into their accompanying raider), what are the rules on Embarking and the distances the vehicle can travel? (I'm not bothered about shooting with this unit/vehicle as you can probably imagine!)

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 04:51

I've always had very good luck in assault, but then again, I was always very picky about what I was assaulting. Vect and bloodbrides (with razorflails) and a syren with venom blade worked wonders. Against guard, against orks, against daemons. The problem I'm going to have now is that those lootas are going to get 10d3 str 7 attacks as soon as I say I'm charging them, guard is going to get 40 rapidfire shots... sure they only hit on 6's, but when you see that kind of firepower coming your way its going to put a lot of hurt on you one way or the other. I honestly don't face a lot of marines, and when I do its the chaosy kind, so they are rather unpredictable anyway (specifically Tzeentch marines and thousand sons). When I do fight marines, its typically Space Wolves, as I have one friend who really likes the smell of Logan Grimnars @#$. XD

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Godreas
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 09:23

My assaults have gone both ways, but in 5th ED, when i would charge a squad of 5 termies which were 1-2 models down due to shooting, my agoniser and forced saves would do the rest.

Or It would go horribly wrong and I would loose by 2-3 and the run.

The only thing that has changed for me now when assaulting termies is to not assault them with wyches but to assault them with incubi + draz which has two ap 2 weapons instead of one. Shoot then assault. Simple
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 09:56

@GAR yes, assault can go badly. I usually diverted 9 wyches with heka, agoniser, shardnet and 5 incu and an archon to 5 termies, and usually i lost 1 wych and 1 incu, killing all termies, yor sweepadvancing them to death.
@beans shardnets are for tarpit unites, not executing unites, although they are still effective against say spacewolfs and anything with 2+ attacks
@Massaen i disagree, but opinions change according to meta Very Happy
@Ruke love your signature...UT right? Smile

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exsquared
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 13:47

@dangerous beans: p78 Under Embarking. "If the vehicle did not move before its passengers got aboard, it can move as normal after they have embarked." i.e. you can turbo boost. So your idea to get 9 bloodbrides (and consequently 3 special weapons) and Lelith in the raider with a haemie's pain token works.

Edit: This also means harlequins can steal someones ride and turbo boost. That is a definite boost to their performance over 5th edition.


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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 13:56

@God: shoot them with disints, does the same thing without worrying of losing any incubi Razz Smile

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Urien Rakarth
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Jul 05 2012, 15:19

This is exactly my idea as well. I tend to pack dissies on my Razorwing anyway, but since Wyches got made into some of the best tank hunters in the whole game I am thinking of taking my Ravagers with Dissies rather than Lances as the AP2 and the multiple shots will be great for trying to rid the world of all those stupid terminators. I know they'll never shoot down a vehicle so perhaps splitting them so 2 Lances and 1 Dissy Ravager or one of each supported by a Razorwing.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar   6th edition not lookin good for dark eldar - Page 5 I_icon_minitime

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