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 Going To Ground & TLOS

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PostSubject: Going To Ground & TLOS   Going To Ground & TLOS I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 11 2012, 23:13

When you go to ground and opt to lay your models down, does this then affect TLOS meaning they may not be visible?

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PostSubject: Re: Going To Ground & TLOS   Going To Ground & TLOS I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 12 2012, 00:11

On the turn that you go to ground, no, as this happens after rolling to hit and wound. On subsequent turns, I would guess that it would affect TLOS. Probably something to discuss with your opponent beforehand though.

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PostSubject: Re: Going To Ground & TLOS   Going To Ground & TLOS I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 12 2012, 00:58

Quote :
On the turn that you go to ground, no, as this happens after rolling to hit and wound. On subsequent turns, I would guess that it would affect TLOS. Probably something to discuss with your opponent beforehand though.

+1

...

They should just institute a +1 button... XD

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PostSubject: Re: Going To Ground & TLOS   Going To Ground & TLOS I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 12 2012, 03:43

More accurately, it wouldn't help against the unit you're being shot at currently, but you could potentially duck out of sight another unit that hasn't shot yet, as far as I know.

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PostSubject: Re: Going To Ground & TLOS   Going To Ground & TLOS I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 13 2012, 03:11

Huh? You actually lay them down?

I just leave them standing and use one of those green "pinned" counters but that is it.

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PostSubject: Re: Going To Ground & TLOS   Going To Ground & TLOS I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 13 2012, 09:38

For going to ground you don't necessarily lay your models down per se (IIRC). It only affects your cover save in this respect and not TLOS.

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PostSubject: Re: Going To Ground & TLOS   Going To Ground & TLOS I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 13 2012, 10:00

@tlronin wrote:
For going to ground you don't necessarily lay your models down per se (IIRC). It only affects your cover save in this respect and not TLOS.

It is an option in the rulebook (pg 24). If you take that option th question is, does it actually affect LOS? Personally I think it's a pretty stupid idea to allow players to lay their models down for exactly this reason. Representing a rule on the tabletop should not change how other units interact with the affected unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Going To Ground & TLOS   Going To Ground & TLOS I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 13 2012, 10:13

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@tlronin wrote:
For going to ground you don't necessarily lay your models down per se (IIRC). It only affects your cover save in this respect and not TLOS.

It is an option in the rulebook (pg 24). If you take that option th question is, does it actually affect LOS? Personally I think it's a pretty stupid idea to allow players to lay their models down for exactly this reason. Representing a rule on the tabletop should not change how other units interact with the affected unit.

Quoted for the truth. Amen to that brother.

But still, even if you take the option to lay your models down I've read it more as a reminder that those units have gone to ground rather than a LOS changing attribute.

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PostSubject: Re: Going To Ground & TLOS   Going To Ground & TLOS I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 13 2012, 10:21

@tlronin wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@tlronin wrote:
For going to ground you don't necessarily lay your models down per se (IIRC). It only affects your cover save in this respect and not TLOS.

It is an option in the rulebook (pg 24). If you take that option th question is, does it actually affect LOS? Personally I think it's a pretty stupid idea to allow players to lay their models down for exactly this reason. Representing a rule on the tabletop should not change how other units interact with the affected unit.

Quoted for the truth. Amen to that brother.

But still, even if you take the option to lay your models down I've read it more as a reminder that those units have gone to ground rather than a LOS changing attribute.

That would be the sensible way to play this but I'm sure we all know players that will argue that laying the models down, probably behind a convenient wall, will completely block LOS. Taking them from a 3+ cover save to complete invulnerability to anything that isn't a barrage or ignoring cover.

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PostSubject: Re: Going To Ground & TLOS   Going To Ground & TLOS I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 13 2012, 10:26

Let the arguments commence. Stupid wording.

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PostSubject: Re: Going To Ground & TLOS   Going To Ground & TLOS I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 15 2012, 10:34

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@tlronin wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@tlronin wrote:
For going to ground you don't necessarily lay your models down per se (IIRC). It only affects your cover save in this respect and not TLOS.

It is an option in the rulebook (pg 24). If you take that option th question is, does it actually affect LOS? Personally I think it's a pretty stupid idea to allow players to lay their models down for exactly this reason. Representing a rule on the tabletop should not change how other units interact with the affected unit.

Quoted for the truth. Amen to that brother.

But still, even if you take the option to lay your models down I've read it more as a reminder that those units have gone to ground rather than a LOS changing attribute.

That would be the sensible way to play this but I'm sure we all know players that will argue that laying the models down, probably behind a convenient wall, will completely block LOS. Taking them from a 3+ cover save to complete invulnerability to anything that isn't a barrage or ignoring cover.

Well, if it comes to this is there anything in the rules that prohibits simply lying one's models down even if they haven't gone to ground? Of course, one may miss out on the chance to shoot at the enemy, as well as avoiding being shot, but for some troops (particularly those with no or only short-ranged guns) this isn't a problem. I guess it's legal RAW but rather WAAC.
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PostSubject: Re: Going To Ground & TLOS   Going To Ground & TLOS I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 15 2012, 11:03

@Ben_S wrote:
Well, if it comes to this is there anything in the rules that prohibits simply lying one's models down even if they haven't gone to ground? Of course, one may miss out on the chance to shoot at the enemy, as well as avoiding being shot, but for some troops (particularly those with no or only short-ranged guns) this isn't a problem. I guess it's legal RAW but rather WAAC.

I don't think there's anything in the rules about which number to read on a dice either but we normally take the one on top. Standing a model on it's base seems to be along the same lines, i.e. "It's so bleedin' obvious, we didn't bother to write it down".

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PostSubject: Re: Going To Ground & TLOS   Going To Ground & TLOS I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 15 2012, 14:21

@Ben_S: Lol. With this kind of reasoning you could lay an avatar flat on it's tummy and hide it completely behind the smallest rock.

There are kinda rules in the book, but i'll have to look 'm up. It's about putting models on the correct base (eg Talos in flight stand), can't model 'm smaller than they are (lay all models flat on their tummies and claim they are sniping from afar), terrain on the base of the model doesn't block LOS (or is involved with the model in any kind of way), skimmers should stand on their flight stand on the end of their turn ('wobbly model syndrome' is actually in the book somewhere). With all these rules in the back of your mind it's not defendable to lay models down at the end of your turn to deny LOS.

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PostSubject: Re: Going To Ground & TLOS   Going To Ground & TLOS I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 15 2012, 14:48

I'm not that familiar with 5th edition rules, and now's not the time to get bogged down in the details, but the only section I can remember/easily find it this:

"Citadel miniatures are normally supplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in a game [Merely using slottabases contravenes RAW!]... As mounting your models on different-sized bases might affect the way they interact with the rules, make sure before the game that your opponent does not mind this" (p.3).

(Entries on wobbly model syndrome [p. 13], cover [p. 21], and skimmers [p. 71] are all of some relevance, but don't directly address what's at issue here.)

I'm a fan both of true line of sight and modelling freedom, though this calls for common sense and doesn't suit competitive tournament play particularly well.

For what it's worth, I have no problem with someone modelling a 'sniper' kneeling or even lying down. First, some official GW miniatures are so-posed. Second, true line of sight cuts both ways. Third, it doesn't make the model smaller (in overall volume), it merely changes their shape.

I think attempts to police 'modelling for advantage' are doomed by the fact that GW scale is hardly constant. I have, or at least remember, terminators on 25mm bases and tyrannids etc on 40mm square bases. My 3rd edition DE are smaller than the current models. These are all official models. So the most one can say about conversions is presumably that they ought not be smaller than the smallest official model nor larger than the largest official model.

As for the original question, I'm inclined to think the 'going to ground' shouldn't remove a squad from line of sight, and I'd be annoyed at an opponent who tried this, but I think we're in the realm of RAI and 'spirit of the game'. That was my original point: that the rule (as written) simply aren't that tight here.
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PostSubject: Re: Going To Ground & TLOS   Going To Ground & TLOS I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 15 2012, 20:45

Simple answer No.

You get +1 to a cover save for going to ground, not the ability to disappear from view completely. Lay 1 model down to remind yourself they've gone to ground and leave the rest where they are.
Problem with lying the squad down is that they almost certainly won't end up in exactly the same position they started. I've seen people manipulate this to try and avoid assaults.
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