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PostSubject: webway bomb   webway bomb I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 18:44

has anyone come up with a good tactic using the wwp? i have yet to give it a try but i want to in the future using beasthunter packs and hellions.

any thoughts on this?
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PostSubject: Re: webway bomb   webway bomb I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 19:47

Actually, this does mesh well with my ninja-DE philosophy. Take a transport for as many of your units as you can, but give an HQ unit a WWP and leave your assault units in reserve, but deploy their transports separately. Play a shell game of sorts where you have 5-6 skimmers flying around, one of them containing your WWP HQ, the rest are empty. Since your opponent won't know what's in each transport (or even if there's anything in there at all), the only sure way they'll have of taking out your WWP HQ is to waste firepower shooting down all your skimmers.
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PostSubject: Re: webway bomb   webway bomb I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 20:02

I've run a portal list pretty consistently since the book released, so I can share a few observations.

Generally, Haemies are the best portal bearers, higher T, and FNP means they can potentially survive a round of getting shot at, or out of a transport. That and you can easily fit 2 portal carriers for 1 HQ slot.

You HAVE TO get the portal open turn one. Unlike the old book where portal units had to come through the portal, now all the units are just put in reserve and the portal counts as an extra board edge. So if that portal isn't open when you start rolling for reserves at the start of turn 2, you are coming on from the table edge, and way out of position.

Obviously, having the portal carrier come out of a transport will give you a slightly better range, but when you deploy the portal pay attention to what kind of army your opponent is playing. By this I mean if they are a slow gunline army, place the portal so it touches the HQ and is pointed towards the enemey to get as close as possible.

However if you are playing a fast or mobile army that could potentially surround the portal, deploy the portal so it is touching as much of your HQ and the transport as possible. Since an enemy can't be within 1", you have a large part of the portal covered by the HQ and transport that can move the next turn and allow models to come out of the portal.

As far as models coming out of the portal, beast packs and hellions are great, reavers if you like them. Wracks can work well coming out with dual liquifiers as well, they make quick work of the squads hiding in cover. The big thing I like to bring out of the portal are the Talos and Cronos. Nothing like having a T7 MC appear at the middle of the table and drop a large blast on you unit and buff another squad about to assault. I've yet to try scourges out of the portal, but they should do fine as well.

The non-portal part of your army should usually be a couple raiders/venoms with an assault heavy selection like Incubi, or wyches charging forward preparing for the turn 2 assault. A nice triple lance Ravager can collect alot of attention as well. It's generally enough of a concern that the enemy will make that a priority over the webway carrier.

The biggest problem with the distraction units is they take alot of fire, and are highly likely to die before they do anything else. So careful movement and knowledge of your opponents firepower is very helpful.

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PostSubject: Re: webway bomb   webway bomb I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 20:27

Why can't we decide to fail Reserves rolls!? WHY, GW!?

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PostSubject: Re: webway bomb   webway bomb I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 23:30

theblackjackal wrote:
Actually, this does mesh well with my ninja-DE philosophy. Take a transport for as many of your units as you can, but give an HQ unit a WWP and leave your assault units in reserve, but deploy their transports separately. Play a shell game of sorts where you have 5-6 skimmers flying around, one of them containing your WWP HQ, the rest are empty. Since your opponent won't know what's in each transport (or even if there's anything in there at all), the only sure way they'll have of taking out your WWP HQ is to waste firepower shooting down all your skimmers.

There's more than one reason this is illegal, not the least of which is that "shell games," as you put it, are not legal. Your opponent, at any time, can ask what is in what and expect an honest and straightforward answer.

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PostSubject: Re: webway bomb   webway bomb I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 04 2011, 00:05

Which, by the way, is and has always been ridiculous. There is no reason why anyone on a remotely realistic battlefield would know for certain what is inside each and every transport the enemy fields without getting close enough to see through vision slits. While open-topped vehicles might be an exception, it wouldn't be all that hard to make it appear that an open-topped transport is carrying troops when it is actually full of dummies.

Bear in mind that all this is assuming that these transports are standing still. If they're moving, it becomes much harder to do so as you also need to track the transport quickly enough to be able to identify and count the occupants.

However, it has been established elsewhere that GW's rules rarely make any sort of sense anyway. I suppose my local circle is an aberration as we just don't ask what is inside each transport, or how units are coming in from Reserve. Aside from this issue, just what exactly are the other reasons why this is illegal?

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PostSubject: Re: webway bomb   webway bomb I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 04 2011, 01:44

Hashmal wrote:
theblackjackal wrote:
Actually, this does mesh well with my ninja-DE philosophy. Take a transport for as many of your units as you can, but give an HQ unit a WWP and leave your assault units in reserve, but deploy their transports separately. Play a shell game of sorts where you have 5-6 skimmers flying around, one of them containing your WWP HQ, the rest are empty. Since your opponent won't know what's in each transport (or even if there's anything in there at all), the only sure way they'll have of taking out your WWP HQ is to waste firepower shooting down all your skimmers.

There's more than one reason this is illegal, not the least of which is that "shell games," as you put it, are not legal. Your opponent, at any time, can ask what is in what and expect an honest and straightforward answer.

Hashmal, can you enlighten us to your thoughts on effective uses of a WWP. You've got a ton of stuff on Warseer and we could use some of that insight here.

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PostSubject: Re: webway bomb   webway bomb I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 04 2011, 02:18

If I understanded You correctly theblackjackal, You just can't put empty Rider and throw IC inside. Only unit that bought dedicated transport may use it (ie be deployed inside) and if You put this unit into reserves... Page 67 explains it.

I also don't know if You should mark full transports. Let me check in rulebook... not so far, page 66, Embarking. Yes, you must do that.

Also, it may provoke some nervious situations, like "ha ha, You've destroyed empty/filled with minimax Rhino, My scoring/expensive squad is in one on left, what a dork".
I actually saw one (really annoying) kid with Grey Knight Helberd-that-is-hammer-or-sword-or-what-I-see-fit in his eye running through shop like cat that spontaneously combusted, don't like that kind of behavior (I mean putting thing in eyes etc).

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PostSubject: Re: webway bomb   webway bomb I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 04 2011, 09:21

Not if the transport is empty, but I believe you can attatch a character to a unit during deployment, so as long as the unit is embarked the IC could be embarked.
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PostSubject: Re: webway bomb   webway bomb I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 04 2011, 18:47

That's exactly what I'm talking about! You have a unit that you attach your portal carrier to, and they ride in that unit's transport.

Regarding the transport thing, it doesn't specifically say that the transport has to be marked as carrying a unit, it's that the unit needs to be marked as being transported.

"Embarking
A unit can embark onto a vehicle by moving each
model to within 2" of its access points in the
Movement phase. The whole unit must be able to
embark – if some models are out of range, the unit
must stay outside. When the unit embarks, it is
removed from the table and placed aside, making a
note or otherwise marking that the unit is being
transported (we find that placing one of the unit’s
models on top of the transport works well!). If the
players need to measure a range involving the
embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is
measured to or from the vehicle’s hull." - BRB, pg. 66

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PostSubject: Re: webway bomb   webway bomb I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 05 2011, 05:41

This is the important book rule theblackjackal.

BRB p92, A NOTE ON SECRECY wrote:
To keep things fair, you should always allow your opponent to read your force roster after a game. In the same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle.

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PostSubject: Re: webway bomb   webway bomb I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 05 2011, 16:17

Which, as noted before, is ridiculous. If my opponent can't be bothered keep track for themselves of which units have embarked on what transports, then they deserve every tactical blunder they make as a result. That said, I will answer honestly when asked, but I'm not about to volunteer the location of all my units just because they don't want to pay attention to the game.

Also, try to keep your rules citations in context.

"A NOTE ON SECRECY
To keep things fair, you should always allow your
opponent to read your force roster after a game. In the
same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which
squads are embarked in which transport vehicle.
However, before starting to deploy their armies, it is a
good idea for players to agree whether or not they can
read the opponent’s force roster before and during the
game. Some players prefer full disclosure (which is the
norm in tournaments, for example), as they want to
concentrate on outmanoeuvring the enemy rather than
springing a secret trump card on them. Others prefer to
leave a feel of secrecy around their lists, as bluffing can
make a game really entertaining. The choice is yours!
(emphasis is mine)" - BRB, p 92

I don't play in tournies, but I do play competitively with the people in my area, and we all play like this. If you disagree, fine, just don't use that to justify talking down to me.

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PostSubject: Re: webway bomb   webway bomb I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 05 2011, 17:33

Agree with above. Can't see any reason to why the enemy force would know what squad is inside what vehicle, unless they have infiltrated a callidus before the battle...

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PostSubject: Re: webway bomb   webway bomb I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 05 2011, 22:48

Your context is wrong.
theblackjackal wrote:
Also, try to keep your rules citations in context.

"A NOTE ON SECRECY
To keep things fair, you should always allow your
opponent to read your force roster after a game. In the
same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which
squads are embarked in which transport vehicle.
However, before starting to deploy their armies, it is a
good idea for players to agree whether or not they can
read the opponent’s force roster before and during the
game. Some players prefer full disclosure (which is the
norm in tournaments, for example), as they want to
concentrate on outmanoeuvring the enemy rather than
springing a secret trump card on them. Others prefer to
leave a feel of secrecy around their lists, as bluffing can
make a game really entertaining. The choice is yours!" - BRB, p 92

I don't play in tournies, but I do play competitively with the people in my area, and we all play like this. If you disagree, fine, just don't use that to justify talking down to me.
I'm not talking down to you. It's just a clarification on a misstated rule.

The red highlights are mine. They show that the sentence at the end is referring to whether you can read the opponent's list/force roster before or during a game, or whether you would prefer to keep it secret until after the game. This has no connection to the disclosure of embarked units due to the way the section is written.

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