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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeSat May 26 2012, 21:48

So I came across this post on BOLS http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/05/40k-enter-dark-footdar.html talking about an all foot dark eldar army. Now we all know that we should always have vehicles and such but the list just intrigues me so.

So I am wondering what are your guys take on an all foot dark eldar army lists and why? So like what units and why you would be talking them and such.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeSat May 26 2012, 21:55

BOLS and tactics.
Its like MacDonalds and good wine. There isnt one there.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeSat May 26 2012, 23:35

Thats pretty rude kind sir.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeSun May 27 2012, 03:14

It is a little odd to make that comment, Azdrubael, especially considering the author of the article is reposting it from another website, Frontlinegaming!

What the list (as of Dark Footdar: Part 5) does is trade a cheap Webway Portal delivery method (2 Venoms, 6 Wracks, 2 Haemys, for example, 380 points) for a unit of fat guys led by Lady Malys (600 points). That's a huge difference in the number of points you get to put into your units coming out tof the portal, and you lose your two little scoring units, but you get a fat assault threat in return. Reading closely, he also plays with a broader interpretation of Malys' anti-psyker ability, and even says you might have to call a judge in a tournament. All told, I suspect the 10 Grot delivery system is better against some armies, while other times you just want to run some Venoms in different directions and get 2 different portal drops.

You shouldn't run Footdar just for getting a cheap "Achievement" of making a list with no vehicles, but because it improves your game and/or you have a narrative, fluffy reason for doing so. My two Pain Tokens.

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Skari
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeSun May 27 2012, 03:40

I have been following the foot dark development and I really think that it can work, you just need to be smart when you play it.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeSun May 27 2012, 06:53

Quote :
It is a little odd to make that comment, Azdrubael, especially considering the author of the article is reposting it from another website, Frontlinegaming!

I have read all 5 pages of it. Well, it wont run good in my parts, thats for sure.
Its usual BOLS tactics article - highly emotional concept, highly situational synergies analisys, in the end pretty general non-specific advices how to play this list. Well in that case its really stand apart from the rest, cause its even have list itself.

I dont mean to be rude, but thats just how i see it. And also little emotions from myself, i have read BOLS myself very often myself until some point and saw it becoming what it is now.

In my parts im running sometimes into very good players who runs really mean lists.
Can anyone tell me how to use Dark Footdar concept to beat something like this?

1850 IG

HQ 1: Company Command, 3*Meltagun, Standard in Transport 1

El 1: Psyker Battle Squad, 4*Additional Psykers, in Transport 2
El 2: StormTroopers Squad, 2*Meltagun in Transport 3
El 3: StormTroopers Squad, 2*Meltagun in Transport 4

TR 1: Veteran Squad, 3*Meltagun, shotguns, in Transport 5
TR 2: Veteran Squad, 3*Meltagun, shotguns, in Transport 6
TR 3: Platoon Command Squad, 4*Meltagun, in Transport 7
TR 4: Infantry Squad, 1*Flamer, PW Commissar, PW, in Transport 8
TR 5: Infantry Squad, 1*Flamer, PW, in Transport
TR 6: HWT Squad, 3*Autocannon

FA 1: Hellhound, heavy flamer

HS 1: Griffon
HS 2: Griffon
HS 3: 2*Hydra

Transport 1: Chimera, Multilaser; heavy flamer transporting HQ 1
Transport 2: Chimera, Multilaser; heavy bolter transporting El1
Transport 3: Chimera, Multilaser; heavy flamer transporting El2
Transport 4: Chimera, Multilaser; heavy flamer transporting El3
Transport 5: Chimera, Multilaser; heavy flamer transporting TR1
Transport 6: Chimera, Multilaser; heavy flamer transporting TR2
Transport 7: Chimera, Multilaser; heavy bolter transporting TR3
Transport 8: Chimera, Multilaser; heavy bolter transporting TR4
Transport 9: Chimera, Multilaser; heavy bolter transporting TR5
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Inrit
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeSun May 27 2012, 18:26

I think the principle of this list is against DE fluff. I wouldn't feel fine playing it.

Azdrubael, I would say "Can anyone tell me how to use Dark ELdars to beat something like this?" Laughing
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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeSun May 27 2012, 20:32

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
It is a little odd to make that comment, Azdrubael, especially considering the author of the article is reposting it from another website, Frontlinegaming!

In my parts im running sometimes into very good players who runs really mean lists.
Can anyone tell me how to use Dark Footdar concept to beat something like this?

Well ignoring the point difference and such the DE footdar has some like 10 anti tank weapons in that specific list. He also states how he plays as a very reactive force bating his opponent to where he wants. Also the list puts up a huge advantage Kill points wise 14kp vs what like 24kp from that IG list? It is a unique tactic especial for Dark Eldar.

@inrit I don't see how it goes against Dark Eldar fluff since the fluff is how you look at it. Personally me I think Malys is so arrogant that she needs no vehicles.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeSun May 27 2012, 21:00

Tis kinda hard to bait a rolling press.

And KP difference will not matter one bit, practically everything this list has can harm and kill anything DE have on foot (and everything else actually), and can ignore both FnP and Cover.

And yes thats 1850 list, and i for sure wont be able to pull even a decent game with 2k foot deldar against it.

This concept is like selecting handicap when you are already struggling against something.And taking hell of a lot fun things in the process.

Quote :
DE footdar has some like 10 anti tank weapons in that specific list
Exactly. Thats not even close to the standart bounce I remember some good rule from somewhere (probably from Thor), take one lance for every 100 point.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeMon May 28 2012, 04:27

A skimmer list will still struggle with that IG list too don't forget, and what about GK Psyflemen spam, Broadside or Long Fang spams.

You can't shut down an idea if you simply don't like the look of it. A lot of a concepts success comes from list building, on-table execution and luck.

Foot/Webway builds simply come down to personal tastes/expericenes too, IMO.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeMon May 28 2012, 11:36

Quote :
GK Psyflemen spam, Broadside or Long Fang spams.

Broadsides and Long Fangs are simple enough - Alpha Strike 1st turn or Full Reserve if we dont have first turn will beat them (at least those with whom i play), if you have enough AI (read venoms). GK Psyflemen apparently not, cause we dont have tools for them.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeTue May 29 2012, 16:21

@Azdrubael wrote:
BOLS and tactics.
Its like MacDonalds and good wine. There isnt one there.

Sadly I will say I have to agree.

The concept is nice, but the delivery system is flawed, the lack of AT in a mech eviroment is flawed, its just flawed. Im not saying the concept isnt sound, its just he need to play more matches and realize the holes that are quite apparent to any DE player.
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blackoutcs
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeTue May 29 2012, 19:20

Although it may be fun in a noncompetitive game, the concept of foot dark eldar is simply unintended. The authors of the book based the entire army around raider chassis. Even the WWP list requires use of skimmers to deliver the WWP.

Unlike our eldar cousins, we dont have decent armor or witch craft to make our guys stronger or more resilient. The witch craft is what allows for footdar to work (sort of)

in short, i believe that just because us and eldar both have the word "eldar" in our name doesnt mean that we can easily run similar lists. An example of this is that the eldar cant run a skimmer spam even as close to as well as we can. Their list simply isnt built to accommodate the concept of having a ton of skimmer on the table. Their transports are simply too expensive and dont provide relevant firepower for the points.
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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeWed May 30 2012, 19:46

I think Dark Footdar can be used it's just going to be a completely different play-style

I'll be running a test 1500pt list when I can/ find someone to play.

2x Hamies with Hexrifle
Lady Malys

Bloodbrides x10 w/ Haywire Gernades , Syren w/ agoniser, PGL

4x Warriors x10 w/ Blaster, Splinter Cannon Sybarite w/ PGL

Helions 9x Helliarch w/ Stunclaw
Scourges x6 2x haywire blaster

2x Pain engine's w/ twin linked haywireblasters and Chain flails additional CCW

I'll report what I find out.

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Crisis_Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeThu May 31 2012, 11:04

Dark Footdar could be used to an extent, but not as an entirely footslogging force. If the army is too reactionary, it will suffer against an opponent that is also designed in a same way. The only way to beat an army like that is either to a) become even more reactionary or b) Be even more aggressive to break through the chain of reactions. In addition, what makes a Footdar list successful is the greater footslogging options and also the capability to capitalize on that option (psychic powers, longer ranged weapons on Warwalkers and Wraithlords, tougher infantry (armour save-wise), etc).

I can see a Dark Hybridar working, but a Dark Footdar needs a lot of situations going for it such as a healthy amount of terrain and LOS blockers, the lack of retaliatory fire, and of course a much more slower army.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeThu May 31 2012, 14:57

A few lists i could see the "Kabal of the Black Foot" working against are an ork trukk spam list, a lot of tyranid lists (genesneakers and harpies could be a problem), probably some Tau due to their inflated point costs and mostly few shot weaponry. maybe a few others, but like crisis_vyper said the list is situational at best
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeThu May 31 2012, 20:12

The dark footdar concept is just another version of the WWP list, and the key to the WWP list is about table control, which complete escapes most players. Dropping the WWP means that you have a much large threat radius. The grots are used as, lets call it a shooting tarpit, hight T, resilient squad in a normal soft army, without Str 10 weapons for instant death you are going to need all game to kill them. Before you even suggest rapid-firing them dead, remember they just droped a WWP, and you have how many CC units coming out of it that will mess you up? Wyches, Beasts, Taloi, we'll even give the Cronos a nod here.

It's a higher learning curve than the standard DE lists, but really if you give the list a try and learn how to use it, it is so much stronger than you can believe. The 'mech push' example given would likely get smashed, because it counts on pushing up the width of the whole table shooting the whole way, Dark Footdar/WWP lists count on using half to a third of the width of the table. Keep in mind this is a developmental idea from the guys at Frontline, based heavily on the stuff being done on hyv3mynd's blog. He has a number of battle reports and tournament results. http://synaps3.blogspot.ca/
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 01 2012, 12:05

An...interesting idea. In our meta, its basically dead. But for fun, i'd play it. I realy would.

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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 02 2012, 22:25

Curious as to what your meta is then. I don't know the meta at my LGS since I rarely see 40k players. Also a foot based Dark Eldar list will probably have to rely on cover a lot and i honestly don't know how much cover are used in tournaments.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 03 2012, 13:41

I have played around with dark eldar lists in the past and it's possible to make a list without many transports, which is particularly useful for if you want to include a talos or chronos in the army. However it doesn't work as well as the normal list, still contains a few vehicles and isn't really dark footdar anyway.
What to do is use two webway portals at once. This way you can cover two parts of the battlefield and if one is surrounded (meaning the warriors can't get out) you can still use the other. However, I find this is very tricky to do, and also uses a lot of points (normally around 130 minimum) to get the webway portals out, not including the unit and their raider/venom that accompany the haemonculi with webways.

Other than this, dark eldar are too fragile, and other than fast attack, talos, chronos or mandrakes, always use a transport (not that I'm suggesting using mandrakes, talos, chronos or most of the fast attack. They really aren't as powerful as they should be).

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 06 2012, 13:15

Not for me it isn't... If I wanted to play 'all foot', I would just keep to my Imperial Guard... At least I would have an easier time feeling empathy for the grunts... It is speed that brought me to the DE in the first place.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 00:23

I want to run some proxy test games against some standard tournament lists but I am having a problem finding them on the net.

I did run a loose test against a mech Grey Knight list which was just purifiers in Rhino's. 6 4+ cover areas spread roughly evenly through out the board. Dark Footdar tabled the grey knight list by turn 6. Was a light test and if some one can point me towards some 1500pt standard tournament lists for other army's it would be much appreciated.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 01:09

This is what I'd normally run at 1500K in a tourney setting, assuming normal mech armies. IMO, all this talk is totally irrelevant since we're about to get sixth edition.

HQs

Emperor's Champion
Crusader Seals, Frag Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Black sword, Armour of Faith, Slayer of Champions, Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds.
140 points


Troops

Close Combat Squad Alpha
6 Marines, one Melta Gun, one Powerfist, all else Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons.
137 points

Razorback
Twin linked Lascannon
90 points

Fire Support Squad Beta
5 Marines, one Plasma gun, one Lascannon, all else Bolters
101 points

Rhino
50 points


Elites

Dreadnought
Lascannon, and Missile Launcher
135 points

Terminator Assault Squad
5 Terminators; 4 with Thunderhammers, 1 with Lightning Claws.
200 points

Terminator squad
5 Terminators, 3 with Storm Bolters, 2 with Assault Cannons, and Tank Hunters Veteran Skill
255 points.

Heavy Support

Landraider Crusader
Blessed Hull, Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Sponson Mounted Hurricane Bolters (3 twin linked bolters), and Multi Melta.
260 points

Predator Annihilator
Turret mounted Twin Linked Lascannon, with Lascannon side sponsons.
145 points




1497 points
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 04:15

Link!

There the Top 16ish from Adepticon in April. IIRC, there are no two lists alike within each faction.

I played a Dark Footdar list tonight with my Duke Deep Strike army. Terrain was sparse and stunted, so if he had been in Venoms it would be hard to hide them, but he won Turn 1 anyways. His units were 2 Haemys, Grots, 2 Warriors, 3 Wyches, Baron, Hellion blob, Incubi, 2 Scourges, and a Beast blob. I'm going to write up a batrep, but long story short- his lack of anti-tank shooting meant he had to assault my transports that I parked in his path, and it turns out Razorwing Jetfighters are bad news for Razorwing Flocks! The Grot-star did survive my entire army shooting at it on my Turn 1 (no missiles fired) but I got to ignore it the rest of the meaningful part of the game. More details in the batrep, but feel free to ask questions.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Footdar Tactical Concept.   Dark Footdar Tactical Concept. I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 08 2012, 04:26

@lululu_42 wrote:
I want to run some proxy test games against some standard tournament lists but I am having a problem finding them on the net.

I did run a loose test against a mech Grey Knight list which was just purifiers in Rhino's. 6 4+ cover areas spread roughly evenly through out the board. Dark Footdar tabled the grey knight list by turn 6. Was a light test and if some one can point me towards some 1500pt standard tournament lists for other army's it would be much appreciated.

Did u actually play this out vs someone, or was this a Vassel game? Just wondering if any factors contributed more so like hot vs cold dice, better general, that sort of thing...

In my game 2 weeks ago, I failed to shoot down 1 StormRaven (had however killed his other StormRaven, 2 Dreads and Mephiston all by T5), which enabled my opponent to fly and contest - and at that point I was 1 up in a Roll Dice/Tie game. Not for lack of AV shooting output, more so lack of successful damage chart results.

Anyway, 2nd 1850 "test" game is tonight - vs CSM - I think he's running 6 Oblits, a DP and some Plague marines.....will fill you all in later on the outcome, but my list is more Webway orientanted rather than pure foot.....
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