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Greenest
Hellion
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PostSubject: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 06:10

I have heard a lot about how great scourges are. I have seen them in a number of lists, and they are a frequent topic of discussion on forums, specifically which weapons make them most effective.

In almost every battle report I've seen which uses them (which are many), they seem to get pimp-slapped out of the air by the end of the second turn. I cannot recall a single batrep where the scourges were still flying around by the bottom of the fourth.

For 22 points each, am I missing something?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 06:15

They pretty much are sub par in my opinion. Only list idea I've ever seen them in that made a lot of sense was out of a WWP with heat lances. There's probably some value to them with Haywire blasters but...currently it's more affordable and functional to just take Trueblasters or Troops with Blasters.

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 06:38

@Greenest wrote:


For 22 points each, am I missing something?
Sadly, you're not. Even with the dual Haywire Blaster setup I've found them to be a pain in the rear to use. You have to worry so much about return fire that you end up dancing around trying not to get shot. That being said, they're probably the next unit that I plan on painting after I finish the last five Hellions Embarassed

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 07:40

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
That being said, they're probably the next unit that I plan on painting after I finish the last five Hellions Embarassed

Don't be embarrassed, the models are gorgeous. I'm planning to paint 10 models.

But as far as tactics go they give me headaches too. I really want to use them with Haywire blasters because they are one of the few spots to get them in your list. But they are -as thor said- most effective DSing or WWPing with heat lances (which is also rare so i'm really irrational haha). Yet -also a thor said- you can buy much better stuff for what they do unfortunatly.

In covens you should really use them though. Very Happy

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 09:19

I think scourges get a bad rep. They can do the same thing reavers can do, for 22 points cheaper. If you decide to go sniper with them, you can give them the cheapest DL's in the army. They all come standard with shard carbines (normally a 5pt upgrade in itself) and Ghostplate Armor (a 10 pt upgrade). I think that scourges are well worth their price, but yes, chances are they are going to eat it 2 rounds after they hit the board at most. What it really comes down to is prioritizing. I give mine heatlances, and there has only been 1 game (against IG where I failed most of my rolls miserably) where they didn't earn their points back.

I think it's a preference thing. I find I like my scourges more than reavers, a lot of people say just the opposite. Personally I've taken reavers out of lists and put scourges in, and I just find them much more versatile and effective.

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 09:35

Versatile? I sometimes prefer Reavers in my list because I can move 36" across a unit and use bladevanes+cluster caltrop to hit 'm hard. The next turn you can use heat lances or blasters to hit tanks from the side or the rear, and jump back in cover in the assault phase. I have not been able to pull off something equally as versatile with Scourges.

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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 11:59

It's always good to read different opinions, so here's a basic overview that most of the "MWG-DE-generals" agree with.

Quote :
Scourges
Despite what their standard wargear may lead you to believe, Scourges work best as an AT unit first, then hunting infantry second.

Strengths:
- Ghostplate Armour on the entire unit
- One of two units with access to Haywire Blasters
- Jump Infantry
- Epic models
- Shardcarbines come stock
- Access to cheap Dark Lances
- Two special weapons per 5

Weaknesses:
- Stock wargear is misleading
- Splinter Cannon, or any anti-infantry wargear options, are overpriced
- Solarite not worth it
- Large units are a terrible idea
- Barely better than Warriors in combat

Wargear:
Shredders are not worth it. It should be free like the Venom Blade on Hellions.

Splinter Cannons are also not worth it here. You should constantly be moving, so you're essentially paying 10 points a piece for one extra shot each.

Haywire Blasters are probably the best AT option for Scourges. Using them to constantly stun your enemies big guns while your Ravagers, Blasterborn, Raiders or any other Lances/Blasters you hav target your enemies transports so that you can get to their infantry. Only when that's done should your Ravagers need to fire at the heavier vehicle your Scourges were holding off, and your Scourges can then go assist in the destruction of your opponents infantry. Otherwise, against transport-heavy armies, you could have the Scourges keep an enemy transport pinned so you have one less unit to worry about for the time being.

Heat Lances, while nice, don't belong here. The only way they'll work is if you deep-strike behind an expensive vehicle, which sounds a lot like what Chaos Terminators do, except that they'll have 3-4 S8 Melta's for cheaper. You know you're not doing it right when you're doing a worse job than Chaos for a higher price-tag.

Blasters are alright on Scourges. Though I prefer the Haywire Blasters, there's nothing wrong with regular Blasters. My only real argument is that if you want Blasters, why not take Trueborn?

Scourges have access to cheaper Dark Lances than any other unit. Than they also have the ability to up-and-go without a transport, something Space Marine players everywhere wish their Devastators could do. Although, the unit will still come out to 140 points minimum, which is more than a Ravager is. Trueborn also can get the same amount of Dark Lances down for a cheaper price, though they do die faster and can't fly away when someone gets too close.

The only reason to take a Solarite is if you want the leadership bump. Don't bother giving him any special weapons.

Conclusion:
I prefer to run units of 5 with 2 Haywire Blasters, but units with Blasters work well too. Just remember to keep numbers low and don't put on useless upgrades and you'll do fine.

Blasterborns may look better on the paper in terms of AT, but it all comes down to the usage. Blasterborns lose a lot of effectiveness once you shut down the venom, while you need to kill 4 out of 5 Scourges to make the unit less effective. Blasterborns also got less range and are more expensive. Scourges can utilize cover better than a venom. ....

I don't like the idea of comparing Scourges with Reavers. In most of my games, my Reavers die enemies turn 2. Not because of a mistake nor because they are bad. They died because I want them to die in order get my enemy in a position I want him to be.
Scourges on the other hands do well in terms of reliable, supportive AT firepower, while they offer great mobility.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 13:05

My take on this (admittedly without too much tabletop experience) is that scourges should be used in one of two roles.

1) Area denial. Give them a couple of haywire blasters, and keep them out of sight of most of the table. The HB's should give you a reliable way to locking down transports whilst the supporting shard carbines are a threat to infantry if your opponent decides to foot slog at you.

2) Suicidal tankbuster. WWP deployment, give em heatlances. Yes, your scourges will die. but for 134 points you're getting out best option of actually penetrating a vehicles armour. I'd say best used for your opponents HQ transport if you've got a maxed unit of incubi nearby ready to head into the fray. Let's assume it's a land raider, 134 pts vs 250+? I'd trade that in a game any day. Upgrading to a solarite is more acceptable for this type of unit, as you can then charge into any unit exposed to avoid return fire, whilst your main combat unit does most of the fighting.

That's how I'd try to use them anyway. I personally think the models are enough justification for including ten of em in a reasonable sized list whatever happens, but that's just me.

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 16:59

Quote :
For 22 points each, am I missing something?

Scourges are not optimum and thus not used in competitive tournament play – pretty simple.

Maybe you are seeing them in friendly games?

I know they are suggested when Trueborn are not used but usually Reavers and Scourges are the 2nd choice.

Who claims they are great?

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Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 17:01

I did. Learn to read, kind sire.

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Skari
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 20:29

I have had good success with scourge on a competitive level. You can see how they have done on my various batreps.

At this recent tournament I took a foot jkabalite unit to try and redirect some of the AI firepower that would be directed at the scourge in a mainly mechanized force, and they only died in one of the 4 games I played. They have performed admirably and I have grown to love the HWBlasters more and more. Getting to learn how to use the winged critters effectively has been quite a blast because they are not like the other units in the list and require more deployment forethought.

Anyhow, this is a positive word for them.

Cheers!

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 21:47

@SleepyPillow wrote:
I did. Learn to read, kind sire.

Don't be so grumpy! Razz

Again, where does anyone say they are great?

You kind of stumble around why you use them but all you say that is great is their mobility - I hardly qualify that as, "hey everyone, Scourges are Great!"

I do believe I understand what you wrote better than you do. tongue

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@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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Firdeth
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 22:02

I cannot foresee ever using them competitively, at least this edition who knows what the next one brings, but would love to field them in friendly games because the models are droolworthy IMO. Just going to spend my cash on venoms and blasterborn conversions first.
I haven't played them so no battlefield experience but just looking at what their role would be, how they'd fit in my list AND their cost I decided against when I first read the dex. But I might be convinced otherwise when I do finally field them.
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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 22:06

@Grumpy Kwi wrote:
@SleepyPillow wrote:
I did. Learn to read, kind sire.
Don't be so grumpy! Razz

I felt you answer were pretty arrogant, like "oh well there are some ppl that say that they are good, but I just don't care about what they wrote", so I replied in same way. EDIT: I also surrender, was MY BAD!

Also I felt that my first paragraph offered some ideas in what they excel better than blasterborn, which is basically a "that makes them good".

Not to mention my last sentence, I feel like elaborating why they can be used and what they do good is a better version of a simply "they are good".

I also thank Skari for his words.

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 23:14

@SleepyPillow wrote:
I felt you answer were pretty arrogant, like "oh well there are some ppl that say that they are good, but I just don't care about what they wrote", so I replied in same way.
Unique snowflake face-off, Round 1.

I like Scourges, especially the HL kind. In a list filled to the brim with high(er)-priority targets, they can really come into their own, churning out melta shots with abandon and wasting armor each turn. Or fail utterly and miserably. But that 'go big or go home' aspect is fine by me.

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeWed May 23 2012, 00:15

No worries, I use Scourges a ton (2 to 3 squads per game) so I agree with your points - you are spot on.

My response was simply to the original post - not yours. I didn't know he was responding to you or something you written somewhere else. Sorry about that.

I had written a long response on how I use them in a WWP list along with their experiences but I can't really say they are "great" for everyone and that everyone should use them. So I would shy away from saying they are great.

I think, "Mileage may vary" is a safe bet but often times I find DE players so used to the old codex when there was very little ways to use the codex we forget that this new one offers more. Scourges work for me better than trueborn but again, that is based on how I play, build the list and who I face.

We cool? cheers

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@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeWed May 23 2012, 01:14

Quote :
I don't like the idea of comparing Scourges with Reavers. In most of my games, my Reavers die enemies turn 2. Not because of a mistake nor because they are bad. They died because I want them to die in order get my enemy in a position I want him to be.
Scourges on the other hands do well in terms of reliable, supportive AT firepower, while they offer great mobility.


Precisely!

Scourges are competitive, but you have to know how to prioritize. Send them after the biggest piece of armor on the field, and keep at it til they destroy it. Don't expect them to survive longer than that, but you should make your points back, and normally leave the enemy without a important piece of equipment.

I'm sure Skari has much more experience than I do, if you want some advice on how to use them to their highest potential, you should get some pointers from him.

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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeWed May 23 2012, 01:18

@Grumpy Kwi wrote:

We cool? cheers

We are. Also I'm darn confused now.


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Skari
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeWed May 23 2012, 01:51

All this jibber jabber and everyone jumped over the meat of my post Sad

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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeWed May 23 2012, 02:00

I SAID I LOVE YOUR POST.


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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeWed May 23 2012, 03:04

@Skari wrote:
SCOURGES ARE WIN!
Spoiler:
 

XD

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeWed May 23 2012, 07:14

@Skari wrote:
All this jibber jabber and everyone jumped over the meat of my post Sad

Skari, I read your post and visited your website - I love that you take in the whole hobby from playing to painting.

I see you use the haywire scourge load out but in the 2 battle reports you posted however you do not really mention much about the Scourges other than when they enter the game and when they get shot at. You do mention that they stunned a land speeder and something else but that is all I got out of two full battle reports (which is still more than what I have ever posted).

I think it would help if you actually list what each unit did every turn - nothing lengthy, just a sentence stating what each unit did in the shooting and assault phase.

Other than that I like the pictures and the way you describe the battles - the website is amazing too.

I am thinking I will post what my scourges have done in various games, usually one of the two squads does something worth noting but most often the other kinda flops.

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Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeSun May 27 2012, 00:54

Used a 5 man unit with 2 HWB's today as an experiment. Kept them in reserve and brought them on from my table edge, no DS'ing malarky here. Shot at an IG vendetta and wrecked the sucker. Died next turn right enough but I'd say they did the job I was expecting them to do. If I was to use them on a regular basis that's exactly how I'd use them, the problem is I see them as a unit of opportunity rather than a solid reliable unit, and I'm not sure thats what DE really need. However I'd take anyhing before relying on darklight.
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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeTue May 29 2012, 15:44

Scourges w/ haywires would be our saving grace... if there wasnt these things called fortitude or living metal...

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PostSubject: Re: Duck Hunters   Duck Hunters I_icon_minitimeWed May 30 2012, 11:25

@kenny3760 wrote:
Used a 5 man unit with 2 HWB's today as an experiment.

Same here yesterday. Just bought the models to paint actually as they are gorgeous but heck might as well use them just once after reading through this topic. They performed better than expected against vanilla marines. They did die in turn three but by then had won back their worth in points IMO.

They really saved me the headache of using my lances on those stupid Rhinos so I could zap a predator with my ravager and raiders and blow it to kingdom come.
Normally I'm happy with any result that sees the Predator not shooting for a turn but because my Scourges harassed a Rhino enough to keep it off my back, and subsequently pestering the marines piling out, I could just shoot everything I had at the Predator to finish it off. Normally with me it's shoot and move on as you want to disable everything to not have it shoot back at you at the least.

BUT this was a very small battle so I don't know how it would scale up in bigger battles with much more scary big machines targeting me and needing two such units. I fear their survivability would drop considerably. Low points battles; yeah I like them Very Happy
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