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 How do you deal with IG Hydras?

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LTKage
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PostSubject: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon May 21 2012, 00:36

Hi All,

So I just cut my teeth in my first 40k Tournament. Although I am very pleased with the outcome, I expect to see IG fielding more hydras in the not too distant future. If the opposition really wanted to, he could field 9 of these babies in a 1500 point game. Obviously, this is very bad and some advice would be much appreciated. From what I can tell, this guy regularly runs Mech IG with Vendettas Flying Support.

Tentatively, this is what I plan on fielding at 1500 points.

HQ
x1 Succubus with Agonizer and Haywire Grenades 90

Elites
x4 Trueborn with x4 Blasters in Venom with Splinter Cannon 173

Troops
x5 Warriors with Blaster in Venom with Splinter Cannon 125
x5 Warriors with Blaster in Venom with Splinter Cannon 125
x7 Wyches with Haywire Genades, Shardnets, Hekatrix with Agonizers in Raider with Flicker Field 182
x8 Wyches with Haywire Genades, Shardnets, Hekatrix with Agonizers in Raider with Flicker Field 194

Fast Attack
x6 Reaver Jetbikes with x2 Heatlances 156

Heavy Support
Ravager with Flicker Field 115
Ravager with Flicker Field 115
Razorwing Jetfighter with Flicker Field 155

That is my "All Comers" 1500 point list. There are some points left over--I'm trying to decide whether to field more Wyches, put on night shields, or take a tooled up Archon.

Thanks in advance!
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon May 21 2012, 01:01

Hydras, like how we deal with all mechanized threats, are killed via torrent of dark matter shooting or by getting in Wyches to haywire assault the parking lot they'll be sitting in.

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LTKage
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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon May 21 2012, 01:59

Well, I'm new to the game but not that new. But thanks anyway--I can see how new players might provoke that sort of response.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon May 21 2012, 04:41

What sort of response are you hoping for? Obviously at the most basic you 'deal' with them by killing them. I went further and outlined the optimal killing sources for our army and that particular unit type.

Beyond that...eh, we could maybe custom describe specific turn by turn optimal tools your army has to kill them?

But there's not a special way to kill them that doesn't apply to basically all vehicles in the game (or, if there is, I haven't figured it out yet). So any answer will tend to be, by definition, general methinks.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon May 21 2012, 05:58

I wouldn't worry about the 9 Hydra scenario all that much. Squadrons of 3 can really only kill the hell out of 3 units a turn. You can get around their ability to negate the flat out save by sending waves- use vehicles to give each other cover. As Thor mentioned, they are best brought down by massed DL fire. Parking lot IG armies are very susceptible to Wyche Haywire grenade multi-charges. If they park infantry in front of the Hydras:charge the infantry!
In other words, don't get too worked up over an IG player bringing 9 Hydras, 9 chimeras, or even 9 sentinels. All of these can kill our transports fairly easily. Use cover, charge targets that are vulnerable, and (worst case) use your high number of cheap and fast transports to provide cover for each other if your opponent fields something that takes away your flat out save.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon May 21 2012, 07:09

Charge them 20 hellions with FnP and FC.
Hellions are great for charging into parking lots. They have so many attacks and at S5 your certain to do some damage. Remember that you only need to immobilise a hydra to destroy it due to squadren rules.
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LTKage
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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon May 21 2012, 22:08

@Thor665 wrote:
What sort of response are you hoping for?

Actually something like this:

"As an IG player, i would say you should use transport blocking shenanigans rather than turbo boosting around, hoping for cover saves. Hydras are optimal against flat out vehicles, because generally they remain in the open hoping for the flat out save to protect them. IG's most effective units against DE are hydras, so either stay the hell out of LoS of one (or two, as is most common), so they are priority numero uno if you see them. Chimeras and AC HWS units should then be priority #2 - anything with High Rate of Fire and High strength is of particular interest (less so with blast weapons), as these punch through your transports with some ease.

"Or simply put so many targets on the field that your opponent can't kill them all - Hydras are often squadroned (they're stupidly cheap for what you get, and often come in pairs, and all comers builds will include other units in the Heavy slot, particularly Medusas/Manticores/Russes), although massed multilaser fire can (and WILL compensate for this). Ideally, kill/maim the counter units (hydras, LR Eradicators) FIRST, and then try to wipe the crucial unit's transport (Command Squads of any type, as they're often decked out with spammed Specials). Problem is that with a mech parking lot (also synonymous with a mech gunline), that as soon as you open one transport and butcher the occupants in CC, the nearby units will retaliate easily, because lets face it, if you can't kill an infantry squad / rout it in 1st CC, then you probably do suck.

"Antonius (Mech Gunline IG player)" Antonius is a member of the Heresy Online 40k community.

Although I am not familiar with Antonius or his skill, I found his post helpful as I am still trying to get a handle on how 40k is played.

Thanks Evil Space Elves, The deal is that I'm afraid of an IG list tailored to deal with DE. At a 1000 point 2v2 game, I had to deal with 2 Vendettas and 5-6 Chimeras. Lets not even get into the BA predator spam. We came out a head, but that was largely because of a DoW deployment cluster F***. Dark Eldar are rather popular at the store I game at, so a tailored 1500 point list with 4 hydras could be a huge pain. It's also not that unlikely.

Interesting idea kenny, but I'm not sure how to implement the idea without major army restructuring. I'm also curious as to how you could get 2 pain tokens without depending on combat drug roles or temporarily attaching 2 haemonculi. Getting that extra point of strength is critical and I don't see mech guard giving away a free pain token so easily to an AI unit.

Thanks all for the advice.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 03:36

@LTKage wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:
What sort of response are you hoping for?

Actually something like this:
I'll offer my thoughts as a DE player on his IG considerations.

@LTKage wrote:
"As an IG player, i would say you should use transport blocking shenanigans rather than turbo boosting around, hoping for cover saves.
Clearly if there are a lot of Hydras you shouldn't consider turbo-boosting/flat out as your only option. However, the army list you presented brings into question if you're even using flat out as a primary goal, though you're probably using turbo-boost with the bikes...and frankly, Hydras or not, still should.

Again, this is starting to delve, like I said, into particular army centric advice, like I mentioned earlier one could do. But, generally speaking, RJBs with heat lances - if you're going to field those things they should probably be turbo-boosting turn 1 because otherwise you're wasting points.

Meh, I feel I'm getting too army specific again - short lesson, focus one what your army needs to do *first*. Don't let the fact you're facing Hydras dictate the pace or your play. If your army is centered on flat out moving with those Wych units - do it. If not - don't.

Also, the talk about getting cover with your vehicles...meh, first ask yourself why you're moving vehicles up and your end goals of moving them up. Giving cover to a vehicle behind you is a secondary plot to the initial goal of the movement (and, often, that movement maybe should be a flat out move anyway). The best defense remains a good offense and your primary goal should be hurting his ability to hurt you and also advancing the gameplan of your army - defensive considerations are secondary to those two goals. Again...off subject.

@LTKage wrote:
IG's most effective units against DE are hydras
This is...mostly true as a standalone (I would rather argue Chimeras are, frankly).
In my lists I generally don't move flat out - I move 12" and shoot. At that point a Hydra is just another gun platform versus my cover saves and flickerfield saves (and are easier to end as a threat than Chimera are). So, understand *why* they're a threat and understand why that threat is or isn't a big issue with you.

@LTKage wrote:
so either stay the hell out of LoS of one (or two, as is most common), so they are priority numero uno if you see them.
If you play in a magical wonderland where the store provides terrain that can let you avoid LOS from IG gunlines, then, yeah, stay out of sight. Obvious point. Whether or not they are priority numero uno...well, that depends greatly on your army again. If you are mech DE (as most lists [and yours] are) then this probably holds true, but it is not an absolute at all.

@LTKage wrote:
Chimeras and AC HWS units should then be priority #2
Chimeras should be priority 2. (and depending on your list and the mission type, priority 1. Frankly, for your list, I'd tend to put them slightly higher than Hydras, but this again delves into how you're playing that list so I'll leave with the general concept 'if you have a list with lots of potent anti-infantry shooting, make sure to crack open some transports so you can use it and not waste it in any given turn)

HWT are secondary phase high priority. In a given turn versus most semi-competitive/full competitive lists you should shoot anti-mech shooting first, and then shoot anti-infantry. It's two distinct phases of shooting - don't confuse high priority shooting for your lances (Hydra) with high priority shooting for your missiles and splinter weaponry (Weapon Teams)

This drags *far* away from the initial question of 'dealing' with Hydras so again I'll apologize for the drift.

@LTKage wrote:
anything with High Rate of Fire and High strength is of particular interest (less so with blast weapons), as these punch through your transports with some ease.
Again, the caveat is 'depends on their range and your army type' but, yes, this is a good basic mindset as regards a mech DE list.

@LTKage wrote:
"Or simply put so many targets on the field that your opponent can't kill them all
You're already running a spam list so you should know your feelings on this as regards it working. You could go more spammy if you like it - but this isn't actually an answer to Hydras, this is an answer to generic DE survival.

@LTKage wrote:
Hydras are often squadroned
I wish I saw that more often.

@LTKage wrote:
although massed multilaser fire can (and WILL compensate for this)
Yes. Massed multilasers are a more general threat. Hydras assure death to a given unit. Chimera spam will saw through your army if played right.

@LTKage wrote:
Ideally, kill/maim the counter units (hydras, LR Eradicators) FIRST, and then try to wipe the crucial unit's transport (Command Squads of any type, as they're often decked out with spammed Specials).
I will STRONGLY disagree that the Leman Russ Eradicator is a priority target - what does he think we are, Space Marines?
That derp tank shoots one good shot (mabe more if they make it silly expensive by adding sponsons) - and generally speaking is an infantry killer. (it does eat our infantry really well in shooting but...well, so does a standard flashlight, so this doesn't matter and is mildly helpful if he brought expensive flashlights like the LRE). If he hits one of our vehicles with this it's a single hit - we will get a cover save or a FF save. 33-50% of the time (presuming he hits nd manages to glance/pen) we laugh it off.
Not a problem.
The problem is when something like a Hydra hits 2-3 times and pens twice - that's what kills us.

@LTKage wrote:
Problem is that with a mech parking lot (also synonymous with a mech gunline), that as soon as you open one transport and butcher the occupants in CC, the nearby units will retaliate easily, because lets face it, if you can't kill an infantry squad / rout it in 1st CC, then you probably do suck.
I'm not sure what the suck comment is about.
The rest of his answer is, well 'it depends'.
First off, this isn't a problem of the mech parking lot - it's a weakness. They tend to pack in close and allow multi-assaults (remember the HWG advice I gave earlier - it applies to parking lots) If you're really lucky he was derp enough to block up exits or start on his back board edge and you start instant killing squads as they can't disembark. Smart IG players spread out their parking lot a bit more to avoid this - that's when you try to use their own army as intervening terrain. Again though, this is becoming 'how to beat IG' not 'how to beat Hydra' so I'll stop.

@LTKage wrote:
Although I am not familiar with Antonius or his skill, I found his post helpful as I am still trying to get a handle on how 40k is played.
It was, I might suggest you were looking for a more general 'vs. IG' type thread though.

Look, here's how to "deal" with Hydras.

You need an army that can shoot multiple lance weapons far enough to hit anywhere on the board on Turn 1 (dark lances are best, than blasters as they can still alpha strike if you disembark)

Shoot at the Hydras (or other top shooting threat).

When you make it so they can't shoot back (if Hydras) or disgorge passengers (if transport) start shooting at the next top priority thing.

On Turn 2, if the Hydra is stilla round it's a decent chance to slap it with some HWGs - especially via multi assault - especially if your shooting made it unable to move in the previous turn. Possibly bring heat lances on RJBs into play if you're fielding them at this point too.

That really is the answer, dark matter volume of shooting and HWGs - everything else is either a larger or a bigger question of specifically how does your army build to perform the task, or how do you deal with a specific enemy army build. The core answer of dealing with them is lances and HWGs (I'll give a slight nod to Kenny for mass Hellion glance-a-thon (also possible with Beastmasters, and, while we're at it, the Talos) but each of those options, again, tends to require a specific type of army and method.


I'm also going to toss out this link for you.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Dark_Eldar_Tactica_Part_1
Mostly for that part of the Tactica, by the sound of what you're being excited by I think you're looking more for general army target priority and understanding your methods at work rather than specific help versus Hydras.

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LTKage
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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeTue May 22 2012, 21:59

Thanks. I'll make good use of the advice and the tactica articles. Haven't lost yet and I don't intend to get sandbagged by some tailored list.
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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeWed May 23 2012, 01:02

@LTKage wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:
What sort of response are you hoping for?

Actually something like this:

"As an IG player, i would say you should use transport blocking shenanigans rather than turbo boosting around, hoping for cover saves. Hydras are optimal against flat out vehicles, because generally they remain in the open hoping for the flat out save to protect them. IG's most effective units against DE are hydras, so either stay the hell out of LoS of one (or two, as is most common), so they are priority numero uno if you see them. Chimeras and AC HWS units should then be priority #2 - anything with High Rate of Fire and High strength is of particular interest (less so with blast weapons), as these punch through your transports with some ease.

"Or simply put so many targets on the field that your opponent can't kill them all - Hydras are often squadroned (they're stupidly cheap for what you get, and often come in pairs, and all comers builds will include other units in the Heavy slot, particularly Medusas/Manticores/Russes), although massed multilaser fire can (and WILL compensate for this). Ideally, kill/maim the counter units (hydras, LR Eradicators) FIRST, and then try to wipe the crucial unit's transport (Command Squads of any type, as they're often decked out with spammed Specials). Problem is that with a mech parking lot (also synonymous with a mech gunline), that as soon as you open one transport and butcher the occupants in CC, the nearby units will retaliate easily, because lets face it, if you can't kill an infantry squad / rout it in 1st CC, then you probably do suck.

"Antonius (Mech Gunline IG player)" Antonius is a member of the Heresy Online 40k community.

Although I am not familiar with Antonius or his skill, I found his post helpful as I am still trying to get a handle on how 40k is played.

Thanks Evil Space Elves, The deal is that I'm afraid of an IG list tailored to deal with DE. At a 1000 point 2v2 game, I had to deal with 2 Vendettas and 5-6 Chimeras. Lets not even get into the BA predator spam. We came out a head, but that was largely because of a DoW deployment cluster F***. Dark Eldar are rather popular at the store I game at, so a tailored 1500 point list with 4 hydras could be a huge pain. It's also not that unlikely.

Interesting idea kenny, but I'm not sure how to implement the idea without major army restructuring. I'm also curious as to how you could get 2 pain tokens without depending on combat drug roles or temporarily attaching 2 haemonculi. Getting that extra point of strength is critical and I don't see mech guard giving away a free pain token so easily to an AI unit.

Thanks all for the advice.

I regularly play the 3 squadren hydras, 3 vendettas and spam chimera list, my mate runs it all the time with a colossus in HS. So here is my advice for what it's worth.
From the list you have got posted your only option is to attack on one flank to limit his amount of return fire. You need to hit him so hard on the one flank that he is unable to retaliate effectively. You then hopefully limit the return fire and get everything in 2nd turn. The thing I've found is that darklight just does not cut it against this type of list.
Lets take your ravager. 3 shots 2 hit and you get 1 glance or pen. Mr IG goes says up yours and takes your ravager out with a single hydra next turn.
This IG spam and GK's is the main reasons I moved from darlight spam and found other sources of AT in the list. Sources that don't fall over o one round of shooting.
Hellions and Baron can easily get 2 PT's 1st turn and S5 really does wreck an IG parking lot. along with HWG.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeThu May 24 2012, 07:49

@kenny3760 wrote:
So here is my adviFrom the list you have got posted your only option is to attack on one flank to limit his amount of return fire. You need to hit him so hard on the one flank that he is unable to retaliate effectively. You then hopefully limit the return fire and get everything in 2nd turn.

I second this.

I've had success (and fun) running a good size unit of beastmasters up the flank im refusing. It forces my opponent to make some tough decisions.

Also get some LOS blocking terrain on the table asap. Guard (and sometimes tau) own planet bowling ball!
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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 13 2012, 07:46

how about deep striking blasterborn in raiders from different directions?

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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 13 2012, 13:46

Blasterborn in raiders? a 10man transport for 4 of 'em? And, for the raider is quite larger than a venom, mishaps do occure more oftenly with raiders/ravagers DSing.
but no, that would be more of a suicide than using blasterborn on foot, shooting from cover at the hydras.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 13 2012, 23:33

@thelordhellion wrote:
how about deep striking blasterborn in raiders from different directions?

I quite like these. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 20:41

My favourite way of dealing with any really tough vehicles is 2 squads of 5 scourges with 2 Haywire Blasters. Now that reserves come in on Turn 2 on a 3+ and the change to the mishap table, I find that they are very reliable suicide squads.

That and a squad of 6 Reavers with 2x Heat Lance prove to be quite good at taking out tough vehicles' rear armour. Now that DEldar jetbikes can move 48" in one turn, Reavers can easily get into position to kill some vehicles the turn after they turbo-boost (which gives them a 3++ cover thanks to Skilled Rider).

Ash'iq.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeSun Jul 08 2012, 22:38

260 points for a suicide squad is a tad bit expensive in my opinion. That and you aren't even guaranteed to take out a vehicle in one volley of fire. Odds are you'll fail at least one to hit roll and only have 3 that go through. Even if you glance the vehicle until it is wrecked hydras only cost 75 points for the base model and probably 100 points for the upgrades. The following turn you can be certain that the scourges are going to get waxed and it won't be hard to negate that 4+ armor save they get. 100<260 points and not worth it one bit. I would rather use the fast attack slot for something more useful and leave the tank busting to my dark lances. Even if we're talking about a land raider as the target, you're still looking at 250 points eliminated and it's far from guaranteed. 4 hull points (as is the case with most really tough vehicles) will require perfect rolls to eliminate with a squad of scourges.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 05:14

I recommend reading my Glass Cannon tactica:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/11/de-tactics-glass-cannon.html

And of course, my short post about IG:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2011/05/short-ig-post-about-de.html

IG sucks fighting against, it's just one of those things you have to accept.

They also got better in 6th, so you must severely outplay your opponent to be on even grounds.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 05:59

Scourges and Wyches man. I played against Tau the other day with a couple of 5 haywire wyche venom squads and multicharging vehicles with that is a thing of beauty. As a long time IG player (5 years) who has recently started playing dark eldar I also understand how easily IG can pluck your dudes from the sky. But the hit to hydras hitting land units helps and if you can survive and get in there with a unit like haywire wyches you will ruin the guard army's day. Best of luck!
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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 08:06

Hydra did get a nerf by needing 6s to hit non-flyers. Focus on blowing them up as soon as possible to ensure they're dead when our flyers arrive from the reserve.

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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 08:39

Interesting that this thread got a lot of traffic post 6th edition release.

Hydras have Skyfire. Skyfire lets you hit fliers, flying monstrous creatures, and skimmers normally. They can still pull us apart on the approach, which is a big deal.

On the plus side, Imperial Guard parking lots got nerfed. I just played one this weekend and it was a pretty easy to pick it apart. I actually prefer the Jetbikes to the scourges. I've played with both and I have to say that Jetbikes seem to be more reliable.

But from what I've seen, the new terrain/fortification rules coupled with changes to Flat-Out are whats going to hurt Hydras. You thought that we were fast before? Think again. It's easier to get close now and we've got more control because of Flat-out moves are declared during the shooting phase.
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Enfernux

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Join date : 2012-05-31
Location : Hungary, Szeged

How do you deal with IG Hydras? Empty
PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 08:49

Hydras? HWG wyches multi assault

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LTKage
Hellion
LTKage

Posts : 97
Join date : 2012-05-21

How do you deal with IG Hydras? Empty
PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 11:12

@Enfernux wrote:
Hydras? HWG wyches multi assault

Did it just the other day. It felt a bit unfair honestly but then I remember how dumb parking lots were.
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Enfernux
Wych
Enfernux

Posts : 823
Join date : 2012-05-31
Location : Hungary, Szeged

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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 13:58

remember how fragile we were in 5th, and how fragile we are in 6th. Remember, and avenge Twisted Evil

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HERO
Hekatrix
HERO

Posts : 1057
Join date : 2012-04-13

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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 17:05

Just gotta outplay dem IG yo.

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Azdrubael
Incubi
Azdrubael

Posts : 1853
Join date : 2011-11-16
Location : Russia

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PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitimeMon Jul 09 2012, 19:20

What are you guys anwering?
Hydras got nerfed to the ground....literally.

They can aim at ground targets only as snapshots.
They still ignore JinK Saves, but that wont help them much.

Hydras stopped being anti-all when 6th hit the shelves.

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How do you deal with IG Hydras? Empty
PostSubject: Re: How do you deal with IG Hydras?   How do you deal with IG Hydras? I_icon_minitime

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