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 Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSat May 19 2012, 04:58


Okay, so this question was brought up in the OvN thread with the Warriors battle. I made the brass statement that Kabalite Warriors are not good at AI and was called out on it. At that stage I stopped and said to myself, Thor, do you believe that at the core? Thinking about it I started to consider that, though they aren't that good at it, maybe they're one of the better Troop options at killing infantry? But then I found myself questioning that - especially on a point per point ratio.

Okay, so to state my hypothesis;

I believe Kabalite Warriors are good anti-mech units.
I believe they are sub-par anti-infantry killing units.
I believe the Venom is a good anti-infantry unit, and people go insane and decide that means Warriors are as well.

So, to test the idea I decided to consider some other anti-infantry possibilities and came up with some that I think represent not uncommon build options to reflect what you would see.

I included a default Tac squad. I also did a big IG infantry blob (that was given FRFSRF stats as well) and also a mob of Ork Shootas (my personal wager for a winner, basically because I now think Orks do Gunboats better than DE and that's why I run Gunboat Orks and don't do it with DE anymore)

I understand that the DE option is unconventional - and, really, if you want to go and crunch the numbers for 2x 10 man squads in Raiders w. Blasters and S.Cannons and also some splinter racks - go for it. Conventionally the unit I built is doing better versus the GEQ and MEQ options with 1 Shredder than it would with 2x Blasters and does worse versus the TEQ by a small margin. As it has 2x S.Cannons it is easy to consider it as 2xGunboats if you wish to. I think it represents quite well up to two full Gunboats blazing away, and, as a ratio, should still have the Kill to Points number be unaffected as both numbers should be in the same ratio as if I'd used a single 10 man Gunboat as a rep.

I didn't include Splinter Racks because they suck anyway Wink


20 DE Warriors w. Splinter Rifles, 1 Shredder, 2 S.Cannons = 205 points

30 Ork Boyz w. Shootas, 2 Big Shootas = 190

IG Infantry Blob w. 3 Infantry Squads w. Grenade launchers = 180

10 Tactical Marines w. Flamer and Missile Launcher = 170 points.


I'm going to run the numbers of these units versus the 'big 3' infantry. GEQ, MEQ, and TEQ - I may also toss in OEQ (Ork equivilent...aka 'Orks' just because they're really the most likely to be seen all infantry army (well, them and maybe Necrons again nowadays).

I will presume all small blast templates hit 3 models.
I will presume a flamer at 12" manages 3 models as well.
They will all be tested at 12" and 24" ranges (Orks count as they could move forward and still shoot because Assault weapons are awesome like that).
No cover saves for the target - only armor.


==================================================================================
Herein lies a lot of boring numbers;
Spoiler:
 


Here are the condensed ratio numbers;


Spoiler:
 

Also, I just realized I gakked up the Big Shoota scores across the board since there should have been 3 of them and also that would change the Ork point total and also that I counted them as Str 4 but...bleh, not redoing i, probably only a minor shift to make them slightly better.

Looking at the info we can draw some conclusions:

Points to kill wise - Dark Eldar are the worst overall at killing GEQ of all the competitors.
Guardsmen are the best (pretty obvious considering their raw numbers)
Orks put in a very solid performance.

DE get a very solid uptick in functionality versus MEQ. Both Orks and Guard compete with them (Guard being better within 12" and Orks being better outside of 24" but versus MEQ DE are a solid performer.

Versus TEQ they again drop down amongst the Orks and Guard. Guard are superior within 12" with FRFSRF, Orks are superior at 24". The Tac Squad is just sad at this category as well.

==================================================================

Well, I can see why I'm happy with my Ork Gunboats as they have better move n' shoot range and perform better at range (and are tougher to kill and can assault, unlike DE Gunboats, oh, and have more durable 'boats' with better 'flickerfields').

That said, in the grand scope of rapid fire weaponry, DE are, not bad. They're not exactly amazing either, as they fail to really own at anything, but are fairly consistent performers which is an argument for their strength. I'll still stick to 'not that great at AI' because, frankly they're still competing for the job with Venoms.

Hurm;

3 Venoms w. S.Cannon upgrade - 195 points

vs. GEQ

12 dead

Ratio = 16.25

vs. MEQ

4 dead

Ratio = 48.75

vs. TEQ

2 dead

Ratio = 97.5


Basically the Venom owns the DE Warrior squad at all three ratios (except a rough tie within 12" versus MEQ and the DE Warrior having an advantage within 12" of TEQ) and since there's a massive survivability and opportunity difference between 36" (48" with move) threat and 12" (18" with move) threat...yeah, overshadowed and owned.

Just some ramblings, feel free to toss out counter thoughts/opinions/whatnot - unlike my norm I don't have a clear agenda I'm promoting with this one Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSat May 19 2012, 05:45

The numbers speak for themselves... Warriors pretty much got pwned... I'm surprised at how well guard did, but strength in number... works for the orks too... But you brought up a good point that with 2 S.Cannon the warriors are going to get a good lick or two in before the other units are within range with the majority of their weapons. If you factor that in the warriors would move up the totem pole, but probably only slightly. Regardless, we have plenty more and better AI than warriors, so it's a moot point.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSat May 19 2012, 07:22

But Thor-san, does this comparing actually relevant information?
Warriors are interesting only from complemeting point of view, they complement venoms and shift it threat perspective to our enemy.

Point to point...well you yourself said dont fight point to point =) Fight 3times point to enemy point.

What if this comparison will be 20 warriors, of which it is 5+Blaster х 4.
Will it change numbers for MEQ and TEQ? Im saying Blaster cause when you have some number of them and firing and something marine like thats pretty much AI, if it hits there is likely to be a dead body of something.


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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSat May 19 2012, 07:40

@Ruke - I'm not sure if pwned is the right expression - arguably some of these options are some of the best units for killing infantry via shooting out there. It's just that Kabalites are not the best and are certainly inferior at the job than some of our other army options.

@Azdrubael - arguably the point of building complimentary would tend to steer towards using the anti-mech capabilities of the Warriors to compliment the anti-infantry prowess of the Venoms.

5x Warriors w. Blasters, eh? Okay...I'll magically presume the Blasters are always in range, otherwise they obviously lose at 24" versus everything else.

4x 5 Warriors w. Blasters = 240

vs. GEQ = 2,22 blaster kills, 5.33 rifle kills (10.66 rapid fire) = 7.55 (12.88)

vs. MEQ = 2.22 Blaster kills, 1.77 rifle kills (3.55 rapid fire) = 3.99 (5.77)

vs. TEQ = 1.48 Blaster kills, .888 rifle kills (1.77 rapid fire) = 2.36 (3.25)

That gives us the following ratios;

31.78 - 18.63
60.15 - 41.59
101.69 - 73.84

Versus the S.Cannon versions we have'

Dark Eldar vs. GEQ

6.43 dead = 31.88
9.76 dead = 21.01

Dark Eldar vs. MEQ

3.19 dead = 64.26
4.30 dead = 47.67

Dark Eldar vs. TEQ

1.59 dead = 128.93
2.42 dead = 84.71

Which suggests, pointwise, Dark Eldar are more cost effective at killing infantry when using Blasters than when using S.Cannons and Shredders. Not that this should shock people as we know the Blaster is a great weapon. They are still sub par at killing GEQ and are still outperformed by Orks and Guards in particular matchups (over 12" away by Orks and 12" or less, and sometimes with FRFSRF by Guard).

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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSat May 19 2012, 09:48

Personally, they are best considered as a secondary wave of anti-infantry rather than being a primary AI platform. For most anti-infantry units, the further away one can do their damage the better unless you have the capability to entirely wipe out the unit at close range. The Razorwing and Venoms are better ranged AI than the Kabalite for the simple reason of range, barring other advantages.

Kabalites are best as sweepers rather than being killers, and it is preferable for them due to their Power from Pain rule, which encourage such opportunistic tactics. Besides, better to keep them safe until you really need them out in the open.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSat May 19 2012, 10:37

No surprises, Warriors are a support unit, they're awful at direct application of force. If you want focussed AI troops you have Wyches, that's what they're there for.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSat May 19 2012, 14:47

I rarely use Warriors for anti-infantry (which is why I prefer Venom squads. Less splinter fire wasted when I fire my blasters at tanks). They seem to do ok when shooting at infantry as well, but they're hardly stellar. Still, they're a relatively cheap and versatile scoring unit thta can ride around in a Venom.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSun May 20 2012, 12:33

I agree with you Thor, and the numbers back it up! Warriors are sub-par and I think better suited to a defensive role holding onto objectives and looking scary!

Against toughness 3 and below DE suck at shooting, thats the downside to poisoned weapons. For example if a necron player runs a scarab swarm at you, we don't have any serious blast weapons, no ordinance and were stil wounding on 4+, don't stand a chance. owever on the other side of that when faced with tougher oppanants e.g: Nidzilla, dark angels bikes, nurgle all of a sudden warriors are sick.

When playing any "normal" armies I tend to use maybe a squad of warriors and sit them on my obj and max out with wyches/raider and blasterborn/venom and they tend to do well. When faced with a Space marine bike army I max out blasterborn w/venom and run a lot of warriors. maybe as much as 40+ and gun boat them. This takes away there advatage of speed, the assualt and the toughness. I do the same against nurgle who then can't even get close!

So I guess that means (like a lot of the DE models) warriors are situational. When faced with anti infantry and T3 go wych/venom, when T4 I would go for a mix with perhaps a 60:40 mix of wych and warrior (hope for the +1strength combat drug), against anything else I find that warrior gunboat spam is the best option. BUT how often do you see a Nidzilla/all bike/nurgle army? When you do and you have a warrior spam 9/10 you should win but in other cases you will lose. If its a planned game and you know what your oppanant might run then go for it, if not I wouldn't risk it, if only warriors got combat drugs....



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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSun May 20 2012, 12:59

Quote :
Warriors are sub-par and I think better suited to a defensive role holding onto objectives and looking scary!
Which bring the questions, why do we need warriors anyway?

Cause best defensive tactics is to use Venoms Splinter Cannon's range and we dont need a warriors for that. Simple Wrack venom less then 100pts do the job just as good + allowing for some additional things in roster and serving as solid scoring and finishing enemy squads.


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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSun May 20 2012, 14:30

@Azdrubael wrote:
Which bring the questions, why do we need warriors anyway?

Because you get loads of them in a box set and spend hours painting them, then get disapointed so strive to see them do something, its like a permanent shiny new model syndrome!
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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSun May 20 2012, 16:18

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
Warriors are sub-par and I think better suited to a defensive role holding onto objectives and looking scary!
Which bring the questions, why do we need warriors anyway?

'Need' is a strong word. When you're done stacking up on Ravs and Blasterborn, 60 pts for a Blaster doesn't seem half bad.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSun May 20 2012, 17:49

Quote :
When you're done stacking up on Ravs and Blasterborn, 60 pts for a Blaster doesn't seem half bad.
That was my understanding as well....before i, like many of you, learned the true Powaaah of the Dark Glance weapons.

How often does this single blaster acutally blow something up?
What do we gain by adding warriors and not, say, Hellion blob, or beasts?
Whats alternative cost, i.e. what we dont take by taking them.

I actually agree with Thor, in my experience Venom mounted warriors seems very ineffective at what they do. They are moderate AI at best, unreliable AT.


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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeThu May 31 2012, 16:57

Warriors? I'd say Venom w Splinterborn, upgraded cannon. Or a Viodraven w 4 implosion missiles/Razorwing w 4 shatterfielad missiles. Lets count the shatters:
Lady average: 1 hit, 2 halfs, 1 scatters. MEQ 10man tac squad, thats 20 hits, 19 wounds, thats 6 dead. Oh wait, you also have other weapons like darklance, or disintegrator in my list. So thats with bs 4 disintegrator, 4 hits, 3 dead - ap2. 1 Remained. A nother Tac squad can be decimated by a good combination of cc squads, and the termies can be taken down by voidraven's implosion missiles.

For mowing down hordes, venoms and for troop choices warriors can be good, but vs the hqard part id take missiles and disintegrators anyday. Pointswise, the 20 warriors will be mowed down very fast before they can realy kill from 12".

At least thats how i see it.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 01 2012, 05:24

There's no question that Razorwings and Venoms kill infantry better than Warriors do. The question is how Warriors stack up at killing infantry via shooting versus other army's units that shoot infantry. I definitely agree with you about using Venoms and Razorwings (though not so much splinterborn or implosion missiles Wink )

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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 01 2012, 09:51

well...on that. If you pitch them against virtually any other troop choice...MEQ hack them to bitz with bolter fire and if that don work, they'll bitchslap you with chainswords, and yeah, that hurts us to. Necron ahhahhahhaahahaha...put those splinter weapons away. IG veterans...we wound them on 4+ anyway, but they are the only race that wounds us on 4+ from shooting! The difference: they have an armorsave, we dont. Okz. Well they are funny. But no, our warriors dont shine against them. Ok, they usually need 5+ to hit, but other than that they are just big numbers that are going to hit. Tau - they are going to hack you down with impuls fire. Stay in cover - at least that gives you a save.

Not going to write the rest, but your get what i mean. In my read, no, they are not good AI, compared to the rest of 40k universe. Ok, they wound MCs on 4+, and a payload of poison will eventually make that wraithlord or tyranofex fall, but DATZ IT! Wytches. Or Wracks...hit wracks a fewest times boys, they lack armor and are going to fall. Gwehehehe...after shooting - did i mention they have feal no pain?

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 01 2012, 22:20

IG don't actually get an armor save versus our shooting. We're AP 5.

Other than that I basically agree with your assessment, and even on a point for point comparison it tends to hold true.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 02 2012, 00:02

Veterans 4+??

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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 02 2012, 15:48

Veterans can get 4+ armour at an extra cost, but they rarely take it since usually they're intented to be a suicide melta unit anyway, and even with 4+ armour they still die easily. I do have a friend who likes running larger units of veterans with 4+ armour and shotguns, tho, but mostly because thye look cool rather than them being effective.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 02 2012, 16:09

but they DO have 4+

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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 03 2012, 19:16

Rather, they *can* have 4+, yes.

But, IG as a whole are a 5+ army, which I thought was what you were talking about when you described trading infantry shooting. If you meant trading infantry shots with IG Vet/Stormtrooper squads only I withdraw my correction.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 03 2012, 19:18

Though I can never recall seeing veterans packing las rifles now that you bring it up. They're always melta party or some odd shotgun crew, and Stormtroopers are hotshotting it. So they wound us on 3+ on average, or are hitting us with melta for total overkill melty death fun.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 03 2012, 22:32

Spec weapon teams can have 3 melta or 3 plasma weapons, and can be upgraded to have 4+ armor. on range 12" with given twin-link commands, both hurt. Plasma hurts some more. BS 4 twin link 3 plasmas from 12" is 6 shots, 5 hits, usually 5 wounds - 2+ - and ap2. 5 dead from one squad. For aprox 60 pt. Do that with warriors please from 12".
Veterans...i hate them. Spec weapons, improved armor, camucloak...GRRR! It makes my fair alabaster skin wrinkle - commercial: bring a lot of souls to your local unfriendly haemonculy to have this perfect skin, dial 369015-Haem.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options?   Are Kabalite Warriors actually good AI compared to other army's options? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 03 2012, 23:05

369015-Haem

I have 8 bags of ork loota flesh... will that be enough to bet me some talons for my right hand?

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