Greetings and welcome to Battle 11 of Old vs. New.
The Talos has always been one of the signature items in the DE list, and this is because it's so different. A Monstrous Creature, it is immensely strong and tough, marking it as everything that DE normally are not. Plus, the fearsome appearance and the fluff behind these mechanical monstrosities usually captures the imagination of even the most jaded player.
But, the question remains - which was better? Is the old monster crab/scorpion superior? Or is the new bloated war beast better at collecting samples for its dark masters?
Talos vs. Talos Pain Engine, let the sweet agony commence!Slot and Cost
As usual, the first basic question is - did they change the cost of the model, and is the model still in the same slot of the codex?
Both Talos and TPE are Heavy selections.
Both cost 100 points even.
Well, that was nice and easy Advantage? - Tie!Stats
This should be an easy one to compare. Did they take away or add to the stat line?
The Old Talos
|WS ||BS ||S ||T ||W ||I ||A ||Ld ||Sv |
|5 ||3 ||7 ||7 ||3 ||4 ||d6 ||- ||3+ |
The New Talos
|WS ||BS ||S ||T ||W ||I ||A ||Ld ||Sv |
|5 ||3 ||7 ||7 ||3 ||4 ||d6 ||10 ||3+ |
I know what you're going to say - they're identical, another tie!
But...no, no actually, they aren't. Now, I recognize I am being nitpicky as anything with this call, but I imagine everyone who played the Old Talos (and maybe even the New) will understand where I'm coming from with this.
Leadership '-' with Fearless is different than being Leadership '10' with Fearless. Why? Because, versus a varied assortment of powers, not having a Leadership score meant you couldn't be targeted with them at all, whereas 10 just means you're tough in a Leadership sense. Now, I'm sure there are situations where having a 10 is better (though Mindwar is the only one I'm coming up with) but, on the whole, being immune to any sort of Leadership shenanigans is generally a bit better than having a Leadership of 10.
Weak advantage, but that's how I see it.Advantage? - Old!Wargear
What good are stats without awesome weapons to use them with? New
New has a variety of oddball tools at its disposal. They, generally, are seen as a bit on the expensive side for what you gain, but there are some good load-out possibilities if you go in smart.
The Talos starts with a TL S.Cannon and can upgrade it to a blast template tosser, a haywire blaster, or heat lance. All of which are prety decent options and quite good t what they do (except maybe the Stinger Pod which, honestly, is pretty 'meh' compared to just sticking with the S.Cannon, frankly.)
It can also take an extra CCW.
And can switch out CCWs with Chain Flails for an extra d6 possibility, or oddball tools like the questionable Ichor Injector, or the most excellent TL Liquifier gun.Old
It had its claws and the Talos sting...yeah...that was it (dear gawd, an Old entry with *less* options, my soul!!!
The Old Sting was pretty interesting - basically it was Assault 6, AP 4, 24" range. You would roll to hit...and then would apply the hits to the closest enemy *model* that hadn't already been hit. So 1st hit would hit the closest enemy model, 2nd would hit the next, so on and so forth.
Didn't matter if they were in Assault either, could still hit and wound them.
It was a lot of fun.
The Talos Claws were...usually an issue. There remained, till almost the final day, some debate about how they worked on Vehicles. The question was raised because GW nerfed their skimmer status and clarified that they worked "as a monstrous creature
and as such uses all the rules for Monstrous Creatures rather than skimmers"
All well and good, as the Talos used to be a skimmer for movement purposes. But that opened a can of worms as to whether their claws were affected by the ruling that they used 'all the rules for' MCs (traditionally they didn't.
Make your own calls on that one, I saw it both ways quite a bit.
The classic rules gave it d6+Str+number of succesful hits after first for it's roll to penetrate vehicle armor (as opposed to the MC 2d6+Str norm) Generally speaking, you were better off if you got regular MC penetration chances.
Not too hard of a one to consider. The Old is inferior at busting up vehicles, and even though I actually rather love the old gun, I do have to admit the options of the new gun is generally superior.Advantage? - New!Face to Face in Battle!
Since the Old lacks any upgrades it would be rather unfair to give the New any upgrades either.
At that point they are functionally identical in all ways - so basically whichever of them gets off the charge will be the winner.
Kind of a derp out but...whatevs, blame Phil Kelly for not making it a more drastic stat shift up Advantage? - Tie!
So that's my breakdown.
This is perhaps one of the easiest battles we've seen. Basically Phil took the old model, cleared away some confusing rules that had been bothering players for a while (and that the FAQs had done NOTHING to help with) and then gave the unit the new special rules and some upgrade options.
Literally that's all he did, and I like it (though dislike th enew model compared to the old, natch
They're the same machine of war, but New has clearer rules, some decent upgrade options, and is overall still the same old Talos we always loved to lob at Marine Squads for lulz.
That's my call - what's yours?