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 Wyches VS. Power Armour.

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Cavash
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PostSubject: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 18:39

I have never used Wyches before, and I am wandering whether to purchase some for my army or not.
My main competitor is a Dark Angels player, and I was thinking, would a squad of five Wyches fair well in close combat against a ten man squad of Green Marines?

They will be mounted in a Venom, just to get them closer to combat.

Has anybody had any experience with smaller Wych squads against Tactical Marines, does it work?

Thank you in advance.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 19:48

I would say probably not so much against full squads of marines. They've effectively got a 4++ save, but even so they're not going to last forever. I have had some success with 5-strong units holding up dreadnoughts though, and if you give them HWG you have a reasonable chance of doing something back (although the way I rolled dice on that occasion, i could have been in combat all day passing dodge saves without rolling a 6 for my haywires!)
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 20:36

No way, 5 wyches against 10 marines?

Should be more like 15 wyches versus 10 marines if you want to successfully win each combat resolution. The old saying is you always want to outnumber you opponent in assault and this applies to wyches. They are not a hammer unit, they are a tarpit that lets your other units or IC's do the bulk of killing. You might tarpit the target successfully unit it finally dies but I am not crazy about spending the entire game hoping the wyches win each round and kill the target before the game ends.

An archon and 9 wyches is fine - never tried 5 wyches and an archon but they just might pull it off (finishing them off in their assault phase). 2 squads of 5 wyches (with 2 agonisers between them) could take 10 marines but I never try to go 1 on 1 with wyches without some sort of help.

Never fight fair, outnumber your target, always and get the notion out of your head that the wyches are a hammer unit, they ain't.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 21:03

It hasn't worked for me. Only thing that would surely harm a marine unit is the hekatrix with her agonizer, and it kills only one of them usually. it's already quite hard to kill a space marine with basic wyches, and being only 5 makes the job even more difficult.
The worst thing is that the rule "and you shall know no fear" prevents you to destroy them in a pursuit if you manage to win the fight and force your opponent to flee. So IMO, instead of using them as a tarpit, there is no way to be efficient with 5 wyches against Dark Angels.
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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 21:42

Hmm, thank you all. I was talking to FRShadows earlier, and he came up with the statistics for me. The wych squad should do roughly 1.109 wounds and another 1.5 if I were to give the Hekatrix an Agoniser. This is incorporating Combat drugs.
After this we came to the conclusion that It would be best to use squads of seven, jst to hold up the enemy.

I will run with them for a while and experiment with them, but if all goes badly the I shall stic to my Warriors.

If anybody has any other good Space Marine hunting units that I could experiment with, then please let me know.

Thank you.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 22:22

Incubi, obviously. Razorwing Flocks are solid too but you need to run 'em in large blobs.

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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 22:52

I do run Incubi, but they travel with my Archon and take down the Command Squad/Deathwing.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 22:53

I have never tried smal units vs power armour, but in my last game (vs Dark Angels) I had a Wych unit 9 ladies strong (with PT from an Haemmy) charging 10 assult marines + their HQ and won the combat 4 - 1. So I know large Wych units can stand up to large marine units.
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Archon
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 03:01

Wyches will work agains Marines, but you need them in numbers. I use a minimum squad size of ten (or nine with a Haemonculus), forget the Shardnet & Impaler and use the Hydraknives / Razorflails. The idea isn't really to kill every model, but make them fail the morale test and destroy them. With a ton of attacks, help from your drugs, and a 4+ Invulnerable Save, you have more than a fair chance of causing more wounds each turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 07:31

@Archon wrote:
Wyches will work agains Marines, but you need them in numbers. I use a minimum squad size of ten (or nine with a Haemonculus), forget the Shardnet & Impaler and use the Hydraknives / Razorflails. The idea isn't really to kill every model, but make them fail the morale test and destroy them. With a ton of attacks, help from your drugs, and a 4+ Invulnerable Save, you have more than a fair chance of causing more wounds each turn.

I agree. That is exactly how I run them too. I also take HWGs, because I always tend to be assaulted by walkers.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 08:14

@Cavash wrote:
I do run Incubi, but they travel with my Archon and take down the Command Squad/Deathwing.

There's your problem right there. Send the wyches to hold up the Command Squad/Deathwing and let your Archon and Incubi massacre everything else.

I've never had luck with wyches vs power armor unless there was a hekatrix with an agoniser *AND* an HQ (Archon or Succubus) also with an agoniser.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 12:22

@Lord_Byron wrote:
I've never had luck with wyches vs power armor unless there was a hekatrix with an agoniser *AND* an HQ (Archon or Succubus) also with an agoniser.

Same here. But with an HQ in, I think 7 Wyches is a good amount.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 13:30

@Archon wrote:
The idea isn't really to kill every model, but make them fail the morale test and destroy them. .

And they shall know no fear.

Shardnet & Impaler is still the top notch of the three upgrades, hands down.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 15:38

The only use I've found for 5 wyches is to arm them with a net and impaler, haywires and then charge them into a dread.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 17:31

I take the duke, as you really need the right drug roll vs marines. Then some form of power weapon is a must and the Ld 9 helps with not running away. I like hydra gauntlets and run two, but pick your poison there. Drug roll you want the +1 str or FNP.

Its like anything in the DE book, you have to combine units and toys to leverage the odds in your favor.

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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeSat May 12 2012, 15:13

Shardnet and Impaler is nice, although, the potential number of attacks provided by the Hydra Gauntlets may prove to be much more useful, or catastrophic.
I will play with both of them to see which one I have the most luck with.

Running the Duke may also prove useful to the rest of my army as well. I use many Raiders and my Archon is kind of a druggie too, so the bonuses provided by him could help all around.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeSat May 12 2012, 18:41

In my experiance 10 wyches can tarpit and beat a squad of normal marines but it takes some time and a constant statistical die role on wounds and saves, Your agoniser does most of the work, it gives you the extra 1-2 wounds that you need to win the combat.

Shardnet and impaler are great when put in B2B vs any power weapon that might be there.

If you have a group of incubi with an Archon then all you need to do is to make sure the archon is always close by to help out in a combat that has taken an unexpected turn (this can happen to anyone, you failing badly on the wounds or saves and he rolling above the statistic) if he has no bigger fish to fry.
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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeSat May 12 2012, 18:46

I think that is what I love most about my Archon, he is a Land-Kraken.

I am not too keen on the idea of a Succubus, but how well do you think seven men, one being a Hekatrix, and a Succubus would fare?

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeMon May 14 2012, 03:36

@Cavash wrote:
I am not too keen on the idea of a Succubus, but how well do you think seven men, one being a Hekatrix, and a Succubus would fare?

If the succubus and the hek both have Ago's then very well indeed!
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeMon May 14 2012, 10:25

I run a very wych orientated army and I find that there are a few rules to using them:
1) 9 Wyches with HWG with a haemocules for the pain token
2) Make sure you get the alpha strike
3) Tarpitting is great but if you can get a vulnerable unit first (and be relativly safe from shooting afterwards) I would always take it out for the second pain token
4) Combat drugs. I think one of the most important things for wyches. Basically against marines you want the +1 strength. With that you will find that a 10 man wych squad can quite easily destroy a 10 man marine (or even terminator) squad. Other drugs are not as effective in my view so when you get the result always try and use it to your advantage
5) Wyches are unbelievable anti tank units, multi-assaulting into a line of vehicles is a great way to cause some damage (especially when you run 30+ of the ladies)

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeMon May 14 2012, 20:20

I always play 9 wyches (grenades, Hekatrix, Agoniser and Hydra Gauntlets) attached to a Haem in a Raider...
They're just perfect in this way for me against marines. They don't kill at the first charge, but they usually win in the enemy turn. If not, I always keep my Incubi near (2 units of 5 in venom or 1 of 8 in a raider with archon, depending on the list).

In fact, the only thing I fear of Marines isn't the power armor, but the amount of vehicles... man I'm really bad at wrecking tanks...

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeWed May 23 2012, 04:37

I tend to use razorflails but the gauntlets look tempting now. I love the wyches, the grenades are great and the 4++ doesn't care about PF's or PW's which is awesome. They won't destroy marines in one sitting but they tend to whittle them down until something else comes with more power!

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeWed May 23 2012, 07:01

Thank you everybody for the advice. It is proving to be useful.

I have another thought, however, Commorites. How about four Bloodbride, one being a Syren for the extra attack, paired with an Archon with a shadowfield and an Agoniser in a Venom?
How well would this do?
I am very new to Wyches as I am a Kabalite myself, so I apologise if these questions appear rediculous.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeWed May 23 2012, 07:15

I myself run a wych heavy army, and I usually have a fair bit of luck killing marines. The big things to consider are:
You need lots of wyches. I run mine in 9 woman squads.
You need a power weapon and a reliable way to wound. (I give my Hekatrix an Agonizer, statically it's a guaranteed wound every round of combat, assuming no invulns.)
Wyches need pain tokens. (I start mine off with a Haemi who leaves the unit turn one, so they get FNP).
You need the charge. (The extra attacks really help. Cutting down a marine extra makes the difference in the long run for combat resolution.)

About the blood brides, I have found them to not be worth their cost. The one extra attack doesn't really warrant their three point increase and loss of Scoring. When the Archon is involved, he's gonna be the one doing most of the killing, the wyches are just ablative wounds.


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PostSubject: Re: Wyches VS. Power Armour.   Wyches VS. Power Armour. I_icon_minitimeWed May 23 2012, 10:42

@Cavash wrote:
I have never used Wyches before, and I am wandering whether to purchase some for my army or not.
My main competitor is a Dark Angels player, and I was thinking, would a squad of five Wyches fair well in close combat against a ten man squad of Green Marines?

They will be mounted in a Venom, just to get them closer to combat.

Has anybody had any experience with smaller Wych squads against Tactical Marines, does it work?

Thank you in advance.

5 Wyches against 10 Marines is a deathwish. 7-9 is the more realistic number if you want to put any dent on the tac squad, and even then the Hekatrix with the Agoniser is a definite must. The wyches are units best put into a raider as they would benefit from the numbers. Slap in a Haemonculus and/or Archon and you are primed to kill them off rather easily.

The best drug results to kill Marines would be 1+ Str, Reroll to wounds, and if you have a Haemonculus attached to the squads, the pain token result. My personal favourite is always the reroll to wounds as it would ensure that the Agoniser will kill something. The rest are alright especially if you manage to get a 1+ Str and later on you get the second pain token immediately for a Str 5 I 7 attack on the charge.

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