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Lord Clazaryn
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 12:19

I think DE assault just got killed in competitive play. We will be the most potent shooting army out there. With nightshields and pre measuring we can orchestrate the most effective alpha strike out there, shorting them while they can't shoot us. And even if they do shoot us we will have 3+ cover. That sounds just scary...

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 13:07

Don't forget though that the snap fire while you assault in is only at BS1, so only hits on a 6, D3 hits for template weapons and I've read on Faeit that blast weapons can't snapfire. On that basis I'd say that the impact on most units from defensive fire is not going to be great unless the unit you're charging is huge.

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The New AIDS
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 13:13

Ork Shoota boyz go!

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 13:16

Which is what Incubi are for. Or just shoot them lots first.

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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 13:16

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Don't forget though that the snap fire while you assault in is only at BS1, so only hits on a 6, D3 hits for template weapons and I've read on Faeit that blast weapons can't snapfire. On that basis I'd say that the impact on most units from defensive fire is not going to be great unless the unit you're charging is huge.
Or if you are assaulting with Wyches. Or Bloodbrides. Or Hellions. Or Wracks. Or Harlequins. Or Mandrakes.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 13:23

I disagree. let's assume your wyches are charging a 10 strong unit with bolters. Shouldn't get more than 2 hits, 1 of which stands a decent chance of not wounding, so 1 casualty? I'd hardly say that's going to result in your assault being unviable. Yes, the result changes if you're assaulting a unit with a flamer, but not significantly.

The other option is to swamp the unit you're assaulting, can only snap fire at 1 unit, so charge them with incubi then support them with wyches if you're that worried about it.

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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 13:53

16 rapid fire shots at BS1, 16/6 hits, 32/18 wounds, 64/54 casualties.
1 flamer, 2 hits, 4/3 wounds, 8/9 casualties.
1 missile launcher at BS1, 1/6 hits, 5/36 wounds, 5/36 casualties.

Total =~ 2.21 dead Wyches.

So, assuming I'm even reaching assault after 2-3 of my Wyches die, I have already lost 1/4 of my unit.

If you do the math vs (GK) terminators, the ones we used to be able to tie up in assault, it gets even scarier.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 14:03

Given that blast weapons can't snap fire, I'd infer that they can't overwatch either. I'll wait to see what the rulebook says about rapid fire weapons, but I doubt that they'd be able to fire twice on overwatch. Even so, how often are you actually likely to charge a full strength unit of marines, most people seem to break them down into combat squads anyway from what I can tell.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 14:05

@Mandor - I don't think you can snapfire heavy weapons. Not sure though.

Depending on how pile in moves now work (I seem to recall that they are 3" now but happen on your I rather than start of combat), might Lelith make a comeback? 4++ save to help vs snapfire shots, then massive I score meaning she can probably kill everything in b2b before they strike back and then pile in wyches to get in the way of anyone attempting to strike her?

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 14:10

I'm doing this without the new book so It's just what we imagine right now...

10 wyches (no special weapons) want to charge 10 space marines (8 bolters, 1 flamethrower, 1 heavy weapon that cannot shoot). Wyches can shoot first, dunno how grenades and/or PGL would work, so let's say they use 8 splinter pistols...

10*0.66*0.5*0.33= 1 dead marine. (close to 2 if hekatrix carries blaster pistol)

-if template weapons need to be on the first line maybe you could remove them before charging via shooting...-

so let's say you killed 1 marine carrying a bolter.

you charge... snap fire in return, including 2 hits from FT

(rapid fire gets 2 shots??) then (14*0.16+2)*0.= close to 3 dead wyches (2 with FnP)

no morale checks in charges so let's fight!

wyches first (no drugs while doing maths Wink )

no multiple assault so 3 attacks on the charge, let's say 7 wyches left (incl. Hekatrix with agoniser)

6*3*0.5*0.33.0.33= 1 dead marine from wyches
4*0.5*0.5= another 1.

7 marines left.. let's say sergeant have power fist (we wont see many PWs from now on...) and that we couldn't kill him by proximity wounding.

if they get ccw+bolter pistol (could they snap fire and shift weapons in the same turn???? good question!!)

6 marines..2*6*0.5*0.66*0.5= 2 wyches down
sergeant... 3*0.5*0.83*0.5=0- 1 more wyches

if they only get ccw... 1-2 wyches in total.

marines are closer to get the win if they have ccw+pistol, but again we don't know if they get 2shots of rapid fire or they must use the pistol so they're using it later in combat.

In order to be more effective, Wyches must use special CCWs and get blaster pistol and agoniser for the hekatrix. Drugs should help here too, and if the rules for grenades and grenade launchers are in our side, then the PGL should be there also.

But what I'm thinking right now is getting my Eldars (specially Eldrad) as an ally. We're friendly with them, and Doom will help us greatly. Furthermore, we will benefit from all their psychic powers, as far as I know. Guide my lances, Fortune my Archon, Doom our foes. I f***ing love you Eldrad.







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dominus nox
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 14:11

Piling in on the models Initiative will kinda nerf Drazhars Darting Strike ability.
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 14:13

The rules seemed to indicate you can only overwatch once a turn, so if you have more than 1 melee unit, only one can get shot. It would seem shooting is the way to go, with reduced cover saves, premeasuring and HWBs and lances being betters. Would probably take an Archon with eighter Incubi or Wytches to get some assaulting ability (and the new IC rules seem to buff Archons a bit). Hopefully agonizer still ignores saves (power SWORDS are ap3, bu seeing how agonizers aren't swords and some other power weapons like axes are ap2, there's hope for us. The again, we're not Marines so GW might just nerf agonizers to keep us from killing their precious Terminators...). The strategic warlord table seems really nice for us. The 3rd result is useless (we allready have night vision on every unit), but the rest is great. +1 to reserves, -1 to enemy reserves, night fighting on turn 1, redeploy units all would benefit us.

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 14:23

@dominus nox wrote:
Piling in on the models Initiative will kinda nerf Drazhars Darting Strike ability.

drazhar will get a 2+ "look out sir" save (after to hit rolls if I'm not wrong) so not that bad. Also, fearless units get no penalties from now on so we will see him more often Wink Furthermore, he will benefit from FnP ALWAAAAAAYS as long as he has 1 PT. Why? he ignores ID....

ALSO! Darting Strike becomes an offensive (not defensive) ability due to proximity wound allocation.

F*** yeah, Drazhar is in,

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 14:24

maybe that's why he costs so many points. Anyone want to comment now on whether Codex DE was written with 6th edition in mind?

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Kinnay
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 14:26

Depending on how the wording on the new 'Eternal Warrior' rule will be, I can imagine him only being immune to the effect 'Instant Death', not to the implications coming along with it. So he's un-instagibbable (awesome word!), but his FnP could be negated by those weapons.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 14:28

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
maybe that's why he costs so many points. Anyone want to comment now on whether Codex DE was written with 6th edition in mind?

Not this again...

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6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 YhBv3Wk
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 14:47

6th edition in mind? LOL it was almost finished for sure. Or did they wrote it (and tested it etc) in less than a year and a half??

But let's not talk about this.

I'm sure Eternal Warrior means no ID, so no ID effects at all. FnP lets you ignore wounds, ID kills you independently of your wounds, so why could you use FnP.

No ID, then you're able to use FnP with every wound you take. Unless the BRB says that weapons with a strength value that doubles your toughness always ignore FnP. Simple enough don't it??

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 14:50

The current (5e) wording for FNP says "cannot be used against wounds from weapons that inflict Instant Death...even if the model is an Eternal Warrior"

I don't see that changing.

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 15:09

Awww.. that hurts.. .you know, Feeling the Pain hahaha!!

Anyway, I'll buy the new Drazhar model if they make it soon (and it seems so).
And Vect Wink Even the Dais if it gets the jink save!!

Anyone can check the limitations to overwatch/snap fire assaulting units?? no heavy weapons nor blasts, don't??? may use pistols if they're going to use them in combat, or can be other and then shift them??

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Sorrowshard
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 16:46

uhm, wont Drazhar be only AP3 ? no thanks he wont be able to touch most of the character you come across and a theoretical 5+ pseudo wardsave is not really an extra cherry given his cost.

I think the DE book was written for 4th updated a bit for the 5th release and is going to be utter crap in 6th , the changes have nerfed the already overpriced agonisers, lances have seen no actual improvement to justify their stupid pricings , the void bomb is still insultingly pitiful and our characters we may as wel not bother with as they can't fight anything with a 2+ save....

or 60 point raiders as far as I can tell are hot candidate for worst/most overpriced transport in the game now .

So a year and a half after the codex release we will have to resort to using Farseers to bolster our army like eldar players have been doing just to survive, it fething sucks ......

here's someone elses thoughts "Anyway as pointed out haywires will be good, BUT:
-DE light skimmers will be total rubbish.
-If the 6" limit on vehicle movement to disembark is true even for fast/skimmers then wyches will be quite literally useless. (They would have been good with nades since wrecking vehicles wouldn't explode them, and they would be able to hit far more often).
-The FNP nerf means a Haemonculus isn't worth the points for a wyche squad.
-Lances (and blasters) are still overpriced since they don't seem to be getting any new benefit.

If you can move 12" and shoot normally as passengers in OT vehicles it will be something but since you'll be dying so fast anyway...

Honestly with the changes it's seeming more and more like a game just for marines and guard.
2+ saves are becoming insanely good, bolters are getting better, ATSKNF is still huge and shooting becomes more deadly to lightly armoured infantry, light vehicles are good but only if they are really cheap.

Are we really considering this a bonus to xenos players? We won't be seeing xenos getting battle brother imperial allies, but the bets are on that most imperial forces will be battle brothers with each other."

I'm going to wit for the post release FAQ , but I have little hope so It looks like the Invidious Requiem will be up for sale , I'm not doing another 5 years of imperial dominance and I was pretty pissed of by the GK book " got Deldar ? Lawl " we have gained nothing and lost much , every other army has taken a boost , even looks like our 5++ save is being handed out like candy to everyone else and that night fields are even more pointless than I thought as your opponent will simply premeasure and not have to loose any shooting.....derpa herp

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dominus nox
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 16:48

Quote :
you get FnP against anything that dosnt cause instant death.
power swords are AP 3. Axes +1 S, AP2 and make you I 1. then there are mauls and spears that are lame.
it says any power weapons unspecified you must look at the model and see what they have for what kind of power weapon they have.

I think a lot of Howling Banshees may be given axes now. Razz
Though it will interesting to see what benefits my Archon gets for his spear.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 17:34

As for assault. New Assault happens in assault phase. Before we always wasted Shooting phase for the run.
Meaning if we are aiming to assault something we always can shoot splinter pistols and almost always can throw Plasma Grenade (8' range).

Stupid Haemy upgrades now make sense, like Orb of Despair and Dark Gate. IF they have flamer model at the front we will be able to kill it.


Meaning we kill can kill about ~2 bodies and they can kill ~2 bodies with overwatch.

I really hope grenade will have a pinning.

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 17:50

SS, I always like your rants Wink, but I prefer to look at the good side of the Dark Kin Future.

@Sorrowshard wrote:
uhm, wont Drazhar be only AP3 ? no thanks he wont be able to touch most of the character you come across and a theoretical 5+ pseudo wardsave is not really an extra cherry given his cost.
well, I don't think that his blade/s will become AP3, the same as agonisers. In character's options PWs cost 5 points, agonisers 20. The cost already includes de AP2 probably

I think the DE book was written for 4th updated a bit for the 5th release and is going to be utter crap in 6th , the changes have nerfed the already overpriced agonisers, lances have seen no actual improvement to justify their stupid pricings , the void bomb is still insultingly pitiful and our characters we may as wel not bother with as they can't fight anything with a 2+ save....
yeah 2 flyers with 5th in mind.. eldars and orks are 5th, DE is 6th, totally. Void bomb now does full strenght hits against vehicles ALWAYS! agonisers, huskblades, lelith, and sliscus and kerand. at 5-6s and 6s to wound most probably will be AP2 at least.

or 60 point raiders as far as I can tell are hot candidate for worst/most overpriced transport in the game now .
jink save, ability to shoot from them (repeating to hit those snap fire shots when moving 12"),...

So a year and a half after the codex release we will have to resort to using Farseers to bolster our army like eldar players have been doing just to survive, it fething sucks ......

here's someone elses thoughts "Anyway as pointed out haywires will be good, BUT:
-DE light skimmers will be total rubbish.
-If the 6" limit on vehicle movement to disembark is true even for fast/skimmers then wyches will be quite literally useless. (They would have been good with nades since wrecking vehicles wouldn't explode them, and they would be able to hit far more often).
you can move 6" after disembarking... with fast skimmer you'll be able to move more in the shooting phase, but your embarked troops will be +12" from the initial place, and still able to charge up to 12"
-The FNP nerf means a Haemonculus isn't worth the points for a wyche squad.or wyches get better against elite combat units (except for S6 ones ofc)

-Lances (and blasters) are still overpriced since they don't seem to be getting any new benefit.
hull points and +1 in the chart (+2 to heat lances) means vehicles will be OUT!! soon. But HW blasters are now a good option too Wink

If you can move 12" and shoot normally as passengers in OT vehicles it will be something but since you'll be dying so fast anyway...
passengers will be able to shoot everything (even Dark Lances), and now they're inside a transport with a jink save, and probably nightshields. Also, our survivability depends on how fast we kill our threats, which will be easier now. All changes that diminish our enemies defences or boost our offensive capabilities makes us stronger than the rest. Charge a Land raider with your wyches. You hit at 3+ if he moved any distance, then four glancing hits at 2+ and the LR is out. Who cries for our Raiders? for the same points we get 3 and they'll get a jink save and 3 dark lances, they are able to transport 30 minis. If raiders get only 2 HP then its 6 for the same price. If they get 3 (like rhinos), then it's 9!!!!

Honestly with the changes it's seeming more and more like a game just for marines and guard.
2+ saves are becoming insanely good, bolters are getting better, ATSKNF is still huge and shooting becomes more deadly to lightly armoured infantry, light vehicles are good but only if they are really cheap.
yeah, AP3 PW means TEQs are insane, and TEQs with FnP are Jedi breeded with level 4 Supersayans. Unless Incubi get AP2, I'll feed them lances, blasters or poisonDakka to death. Or my 30 wyches with shardnets. Look at the good side, we will see less TH/SS termies, due to 2+ alone being awesome.

Are we really considering this a bonus to xenos players? We won't be seeing xenos getting battle brother imperial allies, but the bets are on that most imperial forces will be battle brothers with each other."
let's ally with Chaos Space Marines Terminators. Always. Mmmhahahhaha!!!

I'm going to wit for the post release FAQ , but I have little hope so It looks like the Invidious Requiem will be up for sale , I'm not doing another 5 years of imperial dominance and I was pretty pissed of by the GK book " got Deldar ? Lawl " we have gained nothing and lost much , every other army has taken a boost , even looks like our 5++ save is being handed out like candy to everyone else and that night fields are even more pointless than I thought as your opponent will simply premeasure and not have to loose any shooting.....derpa herp
I hope we wil see less mech guard, and more footguard thanks to snap fire.. .BUT hydras will become more usual... that's when our flickerfields are of use Wink



@Azdrubael wrote:
Stupid Haemy upgrades now make sense, like Orb of Despair and Dark Gate. IF they have flamer model at the front we will be able to kill it.

Well, we only lose the 2D6 reroll for charging.. It really makes sense.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 18:02

Quote :
I hope we wil see less mech guard
Im sure we will see more guard overall.

Ally matrix is 1 Hq 1 Troop and 1 of something else.
And for IG that can be 1 Chimera with Command Squad for HQ, 3 Chimeras with different infantry squads as 1 Trrops chose, Hydra Squadron as Heavy Choice.
Within this limit IG gives more bang overall.
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Levitas
Kabalite Warrior
Levitas

Posts : 154
Join date : 2012-01-25

6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 25 2012, 18:04

You guys see this?

Quote :
Grenades can be thrown! Only one guy per squad. Frag are Str3, Krak Str6, Plasma Str6.

And this...

Quote :
Allies:
Restrictions on allied FOC based on ally level. So you cannot take everything in your allies' codex.
Brothers in Arms - IC can join ally squads and powers effect everyone.
Grudging Allies - IC cannot join ally squads and powers only effect units from their parent army.
Unholy Alliance - IC Cannot join ally squads, powers only effect units from their parent army, and allies near each other have to roll to see if they will do anything that turn.
Multiple Allies in one FOC.

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Dark Eldar 2k, Space Wolves 3k, Raven Guard 3k
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6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   6th Ed rumors and DE - Page 12 I_icon_minitime

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6th Ed rumors and DE
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