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Lord Clazaryn
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PostSubject: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 09:49

So I have been wondering about this and it just came up in someone's project log and to avoid clutter there and to have a serious discussion I'll start this post. Our codex states that "one model may replace their item with upgraded item" but it also says "one model may be upgraded to a leader". So can the same model that takes an upgrade also become a leader as well? For instance can a sybarite take a blaster as you can technically upgrade one model in each upgrade. Or for a more excessive example. In a squad of 6 reavers can the one model be given a heat lance and cluster caltrops but also be the arena champion? It doesn't say anything in our FAQ and I wouldn't think so in the rulebook's either so what's the consensus?

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 10:01

Take trueborn for example. Any model may take a shardcarbine. A Dracon is a model. However, it states that up to four trueborn may take blasters. A Dracon is not trueborn. Generally this will be what tells you if you can chuck a special weapon on the upgrade character. Look and see whether is says model or the basic troop's name.

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Lord Clazaryn
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 10:16

Ahh, yes, I knew there had to be a catch. It does indeed say the basic troop name. Thanks for that. It's not that I was going to do it, I've modelled my guys the standard way but it would have been interesting...

That solves that problem but is there anything stopping you having a heat lance caltropping bike?

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 12:35

Aarghhh such a rules mess-up. Thanks for bringing it up. So that means my hekatrix with hydra gauntlets is illegal?

In my opinion allowing something like this would only make a list more interesting. On the other hand I sometimes play rule lawyers and it tends to bring on awkward discussions ('no you can't use your Kislev horse archers, as those rules are too old' - 'but that means I would have to scrap 25% of my Empire army list AND my favourite unit, just because some marketeer somewhere has decided that the Kislev line is to be discontinued because it is not big enough a cash cow?'...)

So I am somewhat at a loss what to do with it... Why can't the leader be the only one with a special weapons holdout? Doesn't that make sense somehow?
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 12:46

  1. No, nothing is stopping you from combining Lances and caltrops. Our Codex only says one reaver and one model. No restriction here.
    Other codices use clear formulations to tell you, wich upgrades can be combined and wich not. The imperial Guard codex, for example states in it's veterans entry, that:
    IG-C p.98 wrote:
    • Any Veteran may replace his lasgun with a shotgun [...]
    • One Veteran may have:
      - Vox-caster [...]
    • up to three other veterans may replace their lasgun with:
      - Flamer, grenade launcher or sniper rifle ...
So a veteran with a Vox-caster may have a shotgun, but no other special weapon.

  • No, your Hydra gauntlet Hekatrix is not illegal, since the codex says:
    DE-C p.89 wrote:
    For every five models in the squad, one may replace...
    And since the Hekatrix is obviously a model in the squad, she can have a wych-weapon.

  • What is much more important is the "for every five models" part. Because that always means: "for every complete set of five models" and never: "for every five models or part thereof. So a unit of 9 or less wyches may not take two wych weapons. The Hekatrix counts toward this model count, but ICs attached to them don't, since these aren't attached to the unit while buying it.

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    Chaeril
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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 13:33

    Thanks!

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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 14:32

    there is also the whole arguement about buying an upgrade before you upgrade to a squad leader. I forget how its exactly worded (at work atm) but there is a good arguement for allowing things like the pain boy in orks codex get a power klaw before you make him a pain boy.

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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 16:09

    I actually rather disagree with that argument and believe it to be flawed.

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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 16:20

    Dont know about Codex, but Army Builder disallaw Blaster Sybarites and allow Hekatrix with Wych Weapon.

    Also yes bike upgrades for Reaver champion. (...one model per three Reavers may...). Its all in wordings, already there, we just need to follow them, not invent some more.
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    lonewolf
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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 17:32

    Personally I would love this to be true.
    I think the issue arises from the fact that for both syberite/hekatrix have their own list of upgrades in the codex when they are upgraded. To me that would preclude them from standard squad upgrades.

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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 21:27

    @lonewolf wrote:
    Personally I would love this to be true.
    I think the issue arises from the fact that for both syberite/hekatrix have their own list of upgrades in the codex when they are upgraded. To me that would preclude them from standard squad upgrades.

    See that's what I thought as well, you effectively upgrade them replacing any bought equipment with the standard set-up BUT with the added bonus of being able to pay for exclusive stuff normal models cannot get. It says that the Hekatrix may replace her splinter rifle and cc weapon for ***** It doesn't include any wych weapons.
    With models I always assume they refer to any common models, not upgraded leaders. I always played it as such and have never seen it used differently or even questioned until now.

    Interesting one for an updated FAQ though!
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    Ruke
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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 21:36

    Use army builder... its cheap, and makes it easy to plan out an army. You don't have to worry about mixups like this either.

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    The_Burning_Eye
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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeThu May 10 2012, 21:41

    I agree with lonewolf, if you upgrade one of the models to be a hekatrix, it clearly specifies what weapons the hekatrix can take, and the list doesn't include hydra gauntlets etc (sadly).

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    Count Adhemar
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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 00:31

    @The_Burning_Eye wrote:
    I agree with lonewolf, if you upgrade one of the models to be a hekatrix, it clearly specifies what weapons the hekatrix can take, and the list doesn't include hydra gauntlets etc (sadly).

    I disagree. You can quite legally upgrade the Hekatrix with Wych weapons as these are available to "models in the squad". You could not however then take any of the Hekatrix upgrade options (other than PGL) as these all require trading either the splinter pistol or close combat weapon, which you have already replaced with a wych weapon.

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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 08:02

    Well I never thought this day would come, but I actually disagree with Tiri Rana on this one.

    What the Hekatrix (or any upgrade character) can take is specifically mentioned. This is the basic working of a unit entry in the codex IMHO.

    So no Hydra Gauntlet for the Hekatrix.

    To try to clarify my thinking even more I'll try to sequentially set out the way it would work IMHO.

    1) You decide to take 10 Wyches

    2)
    Choice A) You gave 2 Wyches special weapons;
    Choice B) You upgraded 1 model to a hekatrix

    3)
    Choice A) You upgrade 1 model to a hekatrix. For this example you gave the special weapon to the model you wanted to make a hekatrix. Well IMHO you now have to give that special weapon to another model because this model is a hekatrix now and the codex specifically says what the hekatrix can take.
    Choice B) Thise choice is where my example is going to make even more sense, because would you give the 2 special weapons to the model you upgraded to hekatrix previously? No, you wouldn't... Because the dex specifically says what she can take. So you give the 2 special weapons to 2 other models, right?

    The "for every five models" Tiri Rana quoted only limits the number of weapons you can take in a squad and not whát model is allowed to take a special weapon IMHO.

    Edit: Not polite of me not to return to the original question of the OP, sorry. So your Reavers can take a Heat Lance ánd a Cluster Caltrop like Tiri Rana said in point 1. But these Reavers can't be Arena Champions, because the entry in the codex says what an Arena Champion can take and this does not include a Heat Lance or a Cluster Caltrop.

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    Darkgreen Pirate
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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 09:10

    @tlronin wrote:
    Well I never thought this day would come, but I actually disagree with Tiri Rana on this one.

    Sign of the apocalypse Im sure Wink !

    In all seriousness, I believe Tiri Rana is correct as your argument #2 tlronin
    Choice A) You gave 2 Wyches special weapons;
    Choice B) You upgraded 1 model to a hekatrix

    Can be reversed to your argument #3
    Choice A) You upgrade 1 model to a hekatrix;
    Choice B) You give 2 Wyches special weapons

    The Hekatrix, and the arena champion, are upgrade characters that can take special weapons as squad members. They are not excluded from taking squad upgrades. You said it yourself,
    @tlronin wrote:
    The "for every five models" Tiri Rana quoted only limits the number of weapons you can take in a squad and not whát model is allowed to take a special weapon IMHO.
    So in the case of our Codex, you can give a hekatrix razorflails, or an arena champion cluster caltrops, as they are a squad member. They have the option to take specific gear the rest of the squad can't, in this Count Adhemar is correct, or can default to what the squad can take.

    Take this from the Ork FAQ as an example ( I know, different army different rules but please bear with me)
    Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with
    shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a big choppa?
    (p100)
    A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big choppa or
    power klaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to
    have shootas, in which case the Nob is not affected by
    the mob’s weapon swap (as he no longer has a choppa
    to swap), does not receive a shoota and keeps his
    slugga and power klaw/big choppa instead. He is a lot
    happier that way!

    As I read this, because he is a Nob, he can take the BC or Klaw, OR he can take the Shoota upgrade like everyone else (the order is rather silly, but the codex does not give the option to trade a shoota for the BC or Klaw so there it is). Ergo the hekatrix/arena champ can take the wych weapon or caltrop/heatlance that is available to everyone else (but limited by squad size) or their "special" gear.
    They are both unit upgrades.
    They both have the option of special upgraded gear.
    They can default to standard squad gear.

    I think where the confusion comes in is the wording, if the codex said "for every 5 Wyches" then you would be correct, but it says "for every 5 models"(3 for reavers). In keeping with the ork example (after all Phil wrote it too Smile ), they may take a rokkit or Big Shoota for every ten orks in the mob, but the wording specifically says "for every 10 orks in the mob, one ork may exchange..." not "nob" or "model" even, but "ork".
    Not that it is the be all end all in any way, but Army builder lets this happen; Champs with heatlances and Hekkies with wych weapons.
    For clarification, the example posted earlier of a painboy does not hold, as a painboy comes equipped with his own set of gear and has his own codex entry.

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    tlronin
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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 10:33

    @Darkgreen Pirate

    Indeed i didn't know about the existence of that answer in the FAQ of the Orks. If you read it like that and apply it to our codex it is apparantly perfectly acceptable.

    My claim basically boiled down to:

    What an upgrade character can take is explicitly specified in the codex.

    Which obviously is incorrect seeing the Ork's FAQ.

    On personal note I find this ruling strange IMHO.

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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 12:14

    I found it odd too, I certainly did not pick up on it reading our codex. Only when playing with army builder did I see that it was legal and thought it was an interesting option, but the power weapon/agoniser/venomblade option is just better imho. If you are short on points though....

    Perhaps its part of a grand strategy for 6th edition; simplifying unit loadouts to avoid wound allocation shenanigans. Or it could just be Phil Kelly's writing!

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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 13:48

    totally offtopic: but id rather use battlescribe.

    ontopic: wording states indeed "......every 5 models" which means to me that a hexatrix with hydra's is legal. i wont think, how ever everyone will agree with this rule (would be awesome tho)
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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 14:34

    @Darkgreen pirate:

    You can have some nice wound aloc shenanigans indeed this way. Oh well...

    @warhammerpaintservice

    Just for the record, I would disagree with that (hence my posts), if it wasn't for Darkgreen pirate pointing out the Ork's FAQ.

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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 15:03

    @tlronin wrote:
    @Darkgreen pirate:Just for the record, I would disagree with that (hence my posts), if it wasn't for Darkgreen pirate pointing out the Ork's FAQ.

    I think that's because you're proceeding from a false premise, this being "What an upgrade character can take is explicitly specified in the codex". Tthat does not however preclude the upgrade character from taking other upgrades that are available to any member of the squad, as long as the upgrade character stilll has any equipment that is required to be exchanged for the new upgrade.

    This is the reason that a Hekatrix can have one of the Wych weapons, because it is avalable to any model in the unit (subject to max of 1 per 5 models) but requires her to exchange her pistol and ccw. She therefore cannot then have a blast pistol, venom blade, agoniser or power weapon as these also require her to exchange her pistol and/or ccw - which she no longer has. She can still take a PGL because this does not require anything to be exchanged for it.

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    Tiri Rana
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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 15:16

    @Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
    @tlronin wrote:
    Well I never thought this day would come, but I actually disagree with Tiri Rana on this one.

    Sign of the apocalypse Im sure Wink !

    I have to admit it happens rarely, but it happens. Sometimes I even disagree with myself. Surprisingly, that was about the same topic. Read it if you are interested (champions-and-special-weapons Beware, it's a massive wall of text, but I'll continue to dissect the topic here.)

    @tlronin wrote:
    The "for every five models" Tiri Rana quoted only limits the number of weapons you can take in a squad and not whát model is allowed to take a special weapon IMHO.
    You are right here, but you forgot the second part of the sentence: "For every five models in the squad, one may replace..." If it was "one Wych may replace", then you were right, but as it is used here the one must mean one model and the Hekatrix is as much a model, as a Wych is.
    To make it more clear let's look at the Reaver entry:
    DE_C p.91 wrote:
    • For every three models in the squad, one Reaver may replace his jetbike's splinter rifle with:
      - Heat lance [...]
      - Blaster [...]

    • One model per three Reavers may take either:
      - Grav-talon [...]
      - Cluster caltrops [...]

    So we have a very distinctive difference between 'model' and 'Reaver' here, indicating that Heat lances or Blasters can only be taken by standard Reavers, but Grav-talons and Cluster caltrops may be taken by any model, including Arena Champions.
    But is this intentional? The difference in writing style and overall change of wording and sentence structure could lead one to believe this change was only made for variation and better readability.
    I believe, this difference was intentional, although GW isn't known for precise rule wording.

    To boost this argument, let's take a look at the Trueborn entry on page 88 in our codex.
    The first thing to catch ones eye is, the difference between 'any model may take pistol and ccw or Shardcarbine' and 'only Kabalite Trueborn may take Blasters, Shredders, Dark lances or Splinter cannons'.
    This is interesting in itself, but becomes even more important, if we look at the Dracon options.
    The Dracon is, as any Trueborn, equipped with a splinter rifle, but he may replace his splinter pistol, he doesn't have, and his ccw, he also doesn't have with a blast pistol and various special ccws. If we just look at the Dracons options, assuming that he can only take options that are specified as his and none of the general ones, he can never get a blast pistol or an Agoniser, because he has no splinter pistol or ccw to replace with.
    But, if we assume the difference between model and Kabalite Trueborn is indeed intentional then he can exchange his splinter rifle for a splinter pistol and close combat weapon and replace these with his personal options.


    So, long story short, I think it is important to look for the difference between 'model' and '#special unit type', that makes clear, if a squad leader may take a upgrade or not.

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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeFri May 11 2012, 15:30

    @Count Adhemar:
    Yeah, it appears to be a false premise now. But that is indeed what I believed to be the case. Seeing the overpowering mountain of evidence against my case, I must yield. Wink

    @Tiri Rana:
    Yeah, you've plead your case well. I see what you guys mean. Never saw it like that.

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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeTue May 15 2012, 00:27

    @Ruke wrote:
    Use army builder... its cheap, and makes it easy to plan out an army. You don't have to worry about mixups like this either.
    Negative. Army Builder is a tool to used as an easy way to write lists.. It is not a replacement for a Codex or the core rules book.

    Army Builder has been proven wrong time and time again. It is not a rules program it is a list generator.

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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitimeTue May 15 2012, 02:23

    @Baron Tordeck wrote:
    Negative. Army Builder is a tool to used as an easy way to write lists.. It is not a replacement for a Codex or the core rules book.

    Army Builder has been proven wrong time and time again. It is not a rules program it is a list generator.

    Correct, and I use army builder in tandem with my codexes, and I would never say not to do so, but what army builder DOES do is break down each unit and simplify it for ease of use. Had the person been using army builder, the question of if a syb could take a blaster or not wouldn't have come up. As a side note... who would want to? just due to wound allocation would make me not want to...

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    PostSubject: Re: Multiple upgrades on the same model?   Multiple upgrades on the same model? I_icon_minitime

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