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xerxeshavelock
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PostSubject: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 02 2011, 14:59

Do you and your opponents think they should be targettable, or are they just decoration?
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 02 2011, 15:08

I think that they aren't part of so called "hull". Like... I don't know, Deff Rollers/rams?

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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 14:22

I agree. They aren't part of the hull of the Raider. While yes, the Raider's Sail is probably important to it's mobility, the same can be said with Daemon Princes and Hive Tyrants with wings, yet you cannot target a model's wing.

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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 15:29

As with banners, wings, etc., it is not considered part of the vehicle's hull and is thus not targetable.

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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 16:02

Can someone explain to me what is part of the hull on Raider and Venom and what is not? Is there a page reference in the BRB that I am clearly missing?

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 16:14

I don't have Raider reference sheet so I would not give exact part noumbers, but in it's case it's this and everything below + turret:

Raider sails... 176090_sm-Build,%20Dark,%20Eldar,%20New,%20Raider

And in case of Venom it's whole model - flags.

Basically everything that is not "decoration", gun barrel, vital part of vehicle and additional wargear (with exception to turrets).

It's in "Shooting at vehicles", page 60.

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Last edited by Local_Ork on Fri Jun 03 2011, 16:17; edited 1 time in total
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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 16:17

What about the prows? A lot of players are apparently paying 5pts for a Shock Prow so they can shoot and jump out further, any truth in this?

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 16:21

Awww... I was editing post. Apparently additional stuff don't count for targetting purposes.

Actually Prowl is just this front "spike" with pistons anyway (of course I think about one in Ravager box, not some custom stuff).

For CC - yes. For disembarking... it seems like low blow/purpose modelling but I guess it also count :/

IMHO best way is to ask opponent.

Btw this is why I don't sweat too much about freakking big metal "wing" for my Raiders (check My Extravaganza). Or two, like Solar Sailer from TRON

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080507014536/tron/images/thumb/d/db/Solar_sailer.jpg/180px-Solar_sailer.jpg

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Torpedo Vegas
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 18:15

At my club we rule the prows as part of the hull. Yes, I have managed to double tap sometimes because all my Warriors where hanging of the very tip of the prow like a barrel of monkeys.

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 18:28

Actualy, prow (from Raider kit, not Ravager) is technically part of hull and not "Shock Prow".

At least that how GW (and we should, sigh) roll.

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vharing
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 21:00

I think in the case of the sail, if all you opponent can see is that it wouldnt/shouldnt count. As for what Sky Serpent said about people using the shock prow to gain extra inch of movement, that is why they have flying bases. I dislike playing against people who exploit things like that.

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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 21:03

@vharing wrote:
I think in the case of the sail, if all you opponent can see is that it wouldnt/shouldnt count. As for what Sky Serpent said about people using the shock prow to gain extra inch of movement, that is why they have flying bases. I dislike playing against people who exploit things like that.

Its not exploiting, its clever maneuvering. Laughing

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 03 2011, 21:27

Either GW shock prow and non-prow models are exactly the same (sizewise) or I'm missing something? This "prow-but-not-prow" appear to be mandatory part, ergo hull. Same with prow.


And yes, pivoting is [insert word here] but you face enemy with side armour so it (mostly Laughing) ballance this advantage. Also (most Laughing Laughing) 40k vehicles are square, so this isn't big deal anyway.

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Veldrith
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 06 2011, 13:04

The prow has always been a part of a ship's hull. People who complain about this need to review the definition of "hull" and "prow". It's a mandatory part of building the Raider -- the "shock" part is merely an upgrade to an existing prow.

You find me a GW picture of a Raider without a prow. Go ahead, I'll wait.

As for the sail, of course it isn't a part of the Raider's hull. A sail is a sail, and a hull is the solid body of the ship, itself.
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 06 2011, 15:41

I do not allow the sail or the prow to be part of the hull - I also do not measure disembarkation or movement from the prow so I keep it consistent with my opponent.

I tend to go over this stuff at the begining of the game as to avoid confusion.

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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 07 2011, 09:45

I agree on the sail not being part of the hull -- that should be obvious.

However, the prow is a standard piece of the hull -- every single Dark Eldar Raider has a prow, and therefore, it's part of the vehicle. It's not optional equipment, like a dozer blade on a Rhino. It can be upgraded into a SHOCK prow, which allows you to tank-shock, but I also guarantee that it would make perfect sense to consider the pointed tip of the prow as "first contact" when initiating a Ram against a vehicle, or a Tank Shock against a squad.

People have never complained to me about this, and I can't see anything in the rules to make this a murky situation. Even rules of disembarkation say, " Models in an open-topped transport may disembark within 2'' of ANY PART of the vehicle .. "

Why the confusion? It's not unsporting at all to follow the rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 07 2011, 12:16

It's interesting to me the confusion on the prow. I had always counted it as part of the hull, but was actually denied a shooting attack because the prow "didn't count." To me, anything that makes up a sizeable (and perhaps structural) piece of the model should be targetable. The sail , I would say, is a bit like the banners/weapons/decoration items discussed in the brb. The prow should be targetable. To say otherwise would be saying you could shoot the siege shield of a vindicator, kind of?

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Igradar
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 07 2011, 12:50

I think it's rather simple really - the Shock Prow and Sails are part of the model - they're not decoration either - neither of them are flags, neither of them are banners. Just like when you can target a landraider whose careful deployment means that only the topmost gun can be seen - you can indeed target Raiders / Ravagers where only the sail is visible.

I think people are getting too bogged down on the word 'sail' - it's an important part of the vehicle, it serves a function, it's not there as decoration. The rules regarding banners etc. were put into place so you could opt to embelish models without fear of punishment. I've yet to see any argument that could reasonably explain why sails and/or prows could not be counted as the hull.

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Veldrith
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 07 2011, 13:04

Hull:A hull is the watertight body of a ship or boat. Above the hull is the superstructure and/or deckhouse, where present. The line where the hull meets the water surface is called the waterline.

Hull
2 [huhl] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the hollow, lowermost portion of a ship, floating partially submerged and supporting the remainder of the ship.

This is what a hull is, as defined by the English language. According to the BRB, you may only ever draw line of sight with a weapon to the hull of a vehicle, or to the vehicle's turrets. The sail is neither a part of a vehicle's hull, nor is it a turret, and while the line on decorative elements does not precisely refer to a sail as decorative, it doesn't need to -- we're already told what we can draw line of sight to, and both the word "hull" and "turret" have real definitions. These definitions are not deviated from in any part of the game, or any part of the books, so there is no reason to believe an exception should be made until a FAQ says otherwise.

If you'd like some more definitions, here's another:

The prow, or bow (pronounced /ˈbaʊ/ or ˈpraʊ, rhymes with 'how') is a nautical term that refers to the forward part of the hull of a ship or boat, the point that is most forward when the vessel is underway. Both of the adjectives fore and forward mean towards the bow (or prow). The other end of the boat is called the stern.

Many of these confusions stem from people either not having a grasp of nautical terminology and not wanting to look things up, or shutting down their brains as soon as something seems cheesy. I own boats, and I know what hulls and prows are. The prow is part of the hull. The sail is not.

Jesus, if I'm on a boat, I guarantee you I'd be laughing my arse off at someone if they said there was a hull breach, because there was a hole in the sail.
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 07 2011, 14:48

Just use rules from rulebook... no flags, no decorative (IMHO wargear too), no gun barrels (they are important, no?) targetting. Just "hull" and turrets.


Note that "front spike" is part of hull and prow just "upgrade" it to ram while still counting whole thing as hull.

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Veldrith
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 07 2011, 15:06

Yep, precisely what Local said.
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 17 2011, 02:56

Disembarking over a regular prow seems fair. Disembarking over a shock prow seems ridiculous. They'd all be electrocuted. Whilst it's not against the rules as such, it doesn't seem fair - they could slither over the hull and swing off the prow to within two inches as standard, but I'd make the decision to either leave off the shock prow and do that or spend the points and have them exit via the sides and back. Also, that means you get to play with the gangplank and make them look like space pirates, which is always good. The rules might let you do it, but I wouldn't, and I'd clarify this with my opponent before starting a match.

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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 17 2011, 08:54

@Mr Believer wrote:
Disembarking over a regular prow seems fair. Disembarking over a shock prow seems ridiculous. They'd all be electrocuted. Whilst it's not against the rules as such, it doesn't seem fair - they could slither over the hull and swing off the prow to within two inches as standard, but I'd make the decision to either leave off the shock prow and do that or spend the points and have them exit via the sides and back. Also, that means you get to play with the gangplank and make them look like space pirates, which is always good. The rules might let you do it, but I wouldn't, and I'd clarify this with my opponent before starting a match.

Maybe they have an "off"switch? lol!
'At the lfgs we frown upon the first turn "free movement from pivoting" as not being in the spirit of the rules. Of course, after the first turn this happens all the time. Inconsistent:yes.

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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 18 2011, 00:49

As long as you count shock prow as part of hull wich can be fire upon(my case) it can be used for dissembarking.

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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Raider sails... I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 18 2011, 04:51

I suppose the passengers are nimble enough to jump over the prow really aren't they? And rules wise, it does seem fair that if you can target it you can disembark over it. And yeah, I guess they'd turn it off. Looking at my Raider, my point is moot anyway, seeing as it's covered in so many spikes you'd be Swiss cheese by the time you made it to the ground!

Also, cheers for that Evil Space Elves - I'm planning on dressing up as Ash for Halloween, so maybe pictures of the chainsaw will find their way into one of the off topic threads!

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