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 Hellion Carnaval.

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SleepyPillow
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Cavash
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PostSubject: Hellion Carnaval.   Hellion Carnaval. I_icon_minitimeFri May 04 2012, 15:47

Last night I decided that I want a Hellion themed army, worth 2000 points. So far I have got the Core of my army figured out and I would like to know what people would recomened with the leftover points.

So far I have decided on:

Baron Sathonyx – 105

Ravager, Dark Lances, Flicker Field - 115
Ravager, Dark Lances, Flicker Field - 115
Ravager, Disintegraters, Flicker Field – 115

19 Hellions, 1 Helliarch, Power weapon – 335
19 Hellions, 1 Helliarch, Power weapon - 335

This only equals 1120 points, but this is what I have decided on so far. I would like to know what you would do with the remaining 880 points.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Carnaval.   Hellion Carnaval. I_icon_minitimeFri May 04 2012, 16:49

First off I would get just one squad of hellions, maxed out with an Agoniser. The reason why is A: to maximize their damage output, and B: just in case you have to grind at a unit (you get charged or they dont die when you charge them)

Secondly get a Haemie and atleast 1 squad of 3 wracks for PtP shenanigans to get them FC T1. Preferably a raider for them as well so they have somewhere to hide and you get an extra dark lance

If you are diehard in running a second unit, I would do 2 small 10 man squads w/ Agoniser and PGL, and use them as mini venoms and dual charge stuff. That way they are small enough to be off the opponent's radar, and more of a annoyance unit.

You also are going to need some TB for more AT, also I would keep all DL on your Ravagers, you have enough AI from the hellion squads.
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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Carnaval.   Hellion Carnaval. I_icon_minitimeFri May 04 2012, 17:37

While it's true that one hellion squad is enough, it's better to stick with the power weapon on helliarchs. here's why, somewhere near the end of this site.

(Didn't wanted to copy&paste it since it ain't my brains work)
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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Carnaval.   Hellion Carnaval. I_icon_minitimeFri May 04 2012, 18:43

Shadows Revenge wrote:
First off I would get just one squad of hellions, maxed out with an Agoniser. The reason why is A: to maximize their damage output, and B: just in case you have to grind at a unit (you get charged or they dont die when you charge them)

Secondly get a Haemie and atleast 1 squad of 3 wracks for PtP shenanigans to get them FC T1. Preferably a raider for them as well so they have somewhere to hide and you get an extra dark lance

If you are diehard in running a second unit, I would do 2 small 10 man squads w/ Agoniser and PGL, and use them as mini venoms and dual charge stuff. That way they are small enough to be off the opponent's radar, and more of a annoyance unit.

You also are going to need some TB for more AT, also I would keep all DL on your Ravagers, you have enough AI from the hellion squads.

Agree with almost all of this. Just not sure on the TB and DL's but thats my hatred of dark light showing through.
I'd go for some wyches with haywires, reavers and beasts to compliment the hellions, and even keeps them all in wych suits. Remember your hellions are pretty effective AT as are the wyches and reavers, even the beasts can chip in more than you'd think.
This type of list is pretty effective against most lists and it's an absolute blast to play with.
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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Carnaval.   Hellion Carnaval. I_icon_minitimeFri May 04 2012, 19:25

All of this sounds good so far, and thank you all for the feedback.

I am quite determined for it to be Hellion based, so I will probably run two smaller squads with Power Weapons.

I probably will include Reavers somewhere, as this list is mainly for fun. And because I like the models.

I just wanted to inform all of you, just in case you were wondering, I did spell it Carnaval instead of Carnival deliberately, after the name of a piece of music. I just loked over it and saw how it could be seen as a typo.

For this army list do you think that it would be more effective to include Bloodbrides or Trueborns in a Venom?

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Carnaval.   Hellion Carnaval. I_icon_minitimeFri May 04 2012, 20:09

Cavash, I know you like background for your gaming so I am interesting if you are going to run a particular Kabal or theme?

As for the Baron and Hellions - love them in a wwp list and think they are fantastic. Not sure about starting them on the table but Kenny seems to have success there, read his battle reports.

I run 2 squads of 10 and both with agonisers. Not really particular about agonisers versus power weapons so I leave that for others. I will say that if you can get more than half of the squad into combat that the target will get so overwhelmed with S4 wounds that the agonisers will have little importance as you cremate your target to a fleshy pulp. Think about this, if you roll a 5 for drugs then you are going to be rolling 95 dice on the charge? (not counting the Helliarch or the Baron).

So for my lists it is usually Baron and Haemies for deploying a portal. The baron and haemys do swap tokens and I use wracks as escorts for the haemys.

I think one element I would consider is at least one squad of wyches and I find that when hellions and wyches work together it is enough to control the combat. If you do not shave the hellion squad down then there really isn't any need for the wyches.

The problem I see with 19 hellions is getting them into base contact and dealing with terrain (finding cover) and charging (trying to stay out of cover). It is more of a logistical problem and I do not think more = better. How about 4 squads of 10?

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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Carnaval.   Hellion Carnaval. I_icon_minitimeFri May 04 2012, 22:24

Well, Grumpy Kiwi, I will only be using the Baron as a counts as model for Lord Krass’ull Thryck’ytrhys’killion, leader of the Night Hydras Hellion Gang. I am using his rules so I can field Hellions as troops. Lord Krass’ull Thryck’ytrhys’killion was once a Drracon of the Pierced Heart Kabal in service to Lord Dernia Cavash, but he was serving alongside his cowardly son, Prince Talludesh Ayr’kell Cavash. He had a disagreement with the prince and was ordered to be captured by his Trueborn Guard. After mercilessly slaughtering a number of them he was overwhelmed and became just another slave in the cages aboard the Prince's flagship, the Woe of Contepmtuous Bloodshed. On returning to Commorragh, the Kabal of the Severed Hand attacked the ship, and in the ensuing chaos he escaped.

After many weeks of having his soul slowly leeched away by the Thirster he was in great danger of withtering away into a mad state from which he could never return, so he took the Aethersale of a crashed Raider near the Khaides river and fashioned a crude harpoon, which he used to spear a Hellion as he attempted to behead him. He took the board and quickly earned fame pirating against the Severed Hand and the Poisoned Tongue Kabals, two of the Pierced Heart's most detested enemies.

After many years he gained the respect of numerous Gangs and allowed those who wished to serve him into his gang with open arms.
His fortune from plundering was great, and, as a result, he was able to acquire the services of Master Haemonculous Haughraskaivaach of the Twisted Flesh Coven. Haughraskaivaach took the Lord and his five chosen champions, and, with science that verged on the realms of magic, he was able to make them function as one organism. Their minds were linked and through advanced neural synapses he was able to control how they fought, thought, spoke and moved. They could still fight and function by themselves, but were possessed by their master's thoughts whenever he needed a dangerous task carried out without wanting to rish his own life.

This Twisted Flesh Coven was in service to the Severed Hand at the time, however, but after a long, drawn out power struggle, they were ultimately annihilated by the Pierced Heart. Bothe the Wych Cult of Massacre and the Twisted Flesh were consumed by the Pierced Heart.

After meeting with his new master, High Archon Dernia Cavash, Haughraskaivaach informed him of the great work he had perfected while in service to the Severed Hand. This intrigued the Archon. The Prince, at the time, was in hiding, as to return to Commorragh would mean certain endless torment for the actions he committed against the Dark City, so nobody could protest to the services of Lord Krass’ull Thryck’ytrhys’killion.

I do like the idea of four squads. I have decided now that I will include a Haemonculous, I don't know which one of my charecters yet, though. Probably Valex.

Thank you.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Carnaval.   Hellion Carnaval. I_icon_minitimeSun May 06 2012, 09:30

SleepyPillow wrote:
While it's true that one hellion squad is enough, it's better to stick with the power weapon on helliarchs. here's why, somewhere near the end of this site.

(Didn't wanted to copy&paste it since it ain't my brains work)

the problem with this school of thought is that people always assume that the hellions will A: Get the charge, and B: Kill whatever they hit. The problem is both of those is not true all the time. Sure, the whole "DE are a fast unit, so they should dicitate combat" is true, the problem is that the size of the unit you will be fielding restricts that. Its not like you can walk in, kill a unit, and then go behind cover. Your 15+ man strong, they are going to get run up on and assaulted, its just a matter of time. People will do that alot so you are only S3 and it negates your 3+ coversave, which makes the unit almost impossible to take down with range fire. A power weapon wont help you at that point. My second point is also a concern because sure, 15+ hellions and Baron should kill a 5 man combat squad, but when you start getting into the hordes or termies you run into a big problem. Im sure Orks point for point will tie you up. And tying you up means they can get a dual assault and grind their way through your little T3 5+ FNP Green Goblin wantabes.

Also likes go against the "oh, but I save 10 points" part. Well now you are already dumping 400+ points into this unit with Hellions, Baron, Haemie, and Wracks. Stop being cheap and spend those 10 points for insurrance. Also the "Oh, but Agoniser doesnt work with the Strength drug for FC, so its useless" Is a bunch of bull. You are really going to waste your effectiveness on a 16% chance for an extra Strength, when all those other ones help the Agoniser even more. Oh, and even if you get the strength bonus with an Agoniser, guess what, your 14+ hellions have it too, S6 isnt bad too.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Carnaval.   Hellion Carnaval. I_icon_minitimeSun May 06 2012, 10:05

Quote :
A power weapon wont help you at that point.
Point about Power Weapon is about pumping your helions to the FC from the start, even when they recieve the charge they still can hit-n-run and recharge with S4 power weapon. And helions play like that a lot.


WIthout 2 PT from the start - you are right. But why the hell would you, as you say take at least 300 point unit and not guarantee its effectiveness even further with not some crappy power weapon but a really significant FnP and Furious CHarge.

There is a downside in that in the enemy turn you wont be able to use that S4, unless you hit'n'run away to recieve some shooting (which may have some point). All in all - its roughly the same in my opinion, but you pay 10 points less, and 10 points is always usefull in our army. Pain tokens for Helions are where the points must go.

For me the answer is - not pay 31 point for 3 power weapon atacks and forego heliarch option completely.

Lets face it - Helions are *not* a rock unit, they wont chew through anything with ease, there are lots of targets that will will be able both survive and kill them with ease. They are awesome and usefull, but their role is not single handedly destroying enemy, they draw fire, serve as pain in the ass, but they should not be main hitters, they dont have nor strenght and defense for it.

And if they are not - there is no need to equip them like one.

Thats why i really dont support the concept of the roster, it might see sucess in friendly games and soft lists, but i wouldnt go with it on tournament.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Carnaval.   Hellion Carnaval. I_icon_minitimeSun May 06 2012, 19:36

[/quote] Thats why i really dont support the concept of the roster, it might see sucess in friendly games and soft lists, but i wouldnt go with it on tournament. [/quote]

Ah, then unfortunately you are missing a trick. I have had much more success with my Baron/hellion lists than I have had with the traditional venom/darklight spam lists. I've also had a lot more "fun" for what it's worth. I've had opponents telling me they don't know how to deal with the unit, others actively avoid it, go figure.

Most tournaments have a mix of missions of which around 66% will most li9kely be objective based. A Baron/hellion list excels at these. The size of the unit allows for multiple objective holding, the speed of the unit allows them to ebgage enemy units quickly with force in the last couple of turns, and try shifting a 20 strong unit with a 2+(stealth and go to ground)cover save, FnP unit from an objective in a turn, it doesn't happen easily.

The unit is not a deathstar, if you look at it as one of these then it's fail time. But it is a rock on which to build a list around, just don't look for it too make it's points back in kills.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Carnaval.   Hellion Carnaval. I_icon_minitimeMon May 07 2012, 06:55

Dont get me wrong, i like Helions very much and preparing 15 of them myself now.
I also even think they are a must for a good list, as you say they are absolutely best scoring in the book and good solution to a parking lot problems.

I just dont like 2 big squads of them. One of this big squad will be gimped, it can only function well with Baron.

For 2 melee threat squads that can both benefit from Baron i would sooner chose Helions + Beasts.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Carnaval.   Hellion Carnaval. I_icon_minitimeMon May 07 2012, 09:50

Azdrubael wrote:
I just dont like 2 big squads of them. One of this big squad will be gimped, it can only function well with Baron.

For 2 melee threat squads that can both benefit from Baron i would sooner chose Helions + Beasts.

Completely agree with this. It took me a long time and a lot of convincing from Thor but the beast unit is an excellent foil pairing with the hellions
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PostSubject: Re: Hellion Carnaval.   Hellion Carnaval. I_icon_minitimeMon May 07 2012, 21:40

kenny3760 wrote:
...Most tournaments have a mix of missions of which around 66% will most li9kely be objective...

The unit is not a deathstar, if you look at it as one of these then it's fail time. But it is a rock on which to build a list around, just don't look for it too make it's points back in kills.

Thank you Kenny.

This is basically the one thing to remember about Hellions.
They're not invincible at all.

But great at grabbing objectives unless you charge away from them at the last turn of the tournament final...

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