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Raziel
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PostSubject: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 30 2012, 23:57

greetigns fellow archons. i played a guard player of my store 7 times now and he got pretty much everything so he can tailor his lists well to fight against me. i only made a draw once, the other 6 games were loses

he owns 9 griffons and a crap load of chimeras and thats what brings me trouble. even at 1250 points he can run 6 griffons and 7 chimeras. so that i have to face 13 vehicles all with a 12 AV at the front wich is pretty hard to take down because every thing also got smoke launchers. his guardsmen also only got grenade launchers..
so all i get shot at is S5- S6 fire. a big problem are the griffons, the reroll for the scatter dice while still beeing able to shoot at target without the need of LOS makes them so damn hard for me to get close to. in combination with the heavy bolters & multilasers from the chimeras makes it even harder... and also those grenade launchers...

now i thought about a one-trick pony against him.. normally i avoid using special character but i think using Vect with the Dais will seriously screw his plans because he isnt even able to scratch it. i just dont know yet what i should place him inside with yet. any sugestions?

i know this one trick pony will most likely only work once so i hope you guys can also tell me any ways i maybe didnt saw so far to beat him... max lance spam, WWP, assault heavy.. nothing worked against him so far.
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Skari
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 01:16

Guard are one of our toughest matchups.

From what I hear here are a few pointers:
- remember that gryphones can only fire indirectly, so 12" away from them is a safe heaven!
- the dais would be fun to use, pack it with wyches with haywires, you want to get into his face and to do it fast. When you stun a chimera. move on, and stun the others, ignore the gryphonnes, they can only shoot at 3 targets, maybe shoot the ravagers at them, but once one or two are stunned, move on. I cant stress the getting into his face enough... let him go first, and reserve everything... if you dont have vect as your stuff comes on, rush him, and I mean rush him... get those wyches up the table 24" or more with sails! Then even if he blows the raiders the wyches are there ready to charge the parking lot.

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 02:19

I agree with Skari, wyches in his face with haywires + multi charging + parked vehicles should = win. Or at least help!

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Raziel
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PostSubject: Re: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 02:50

problem is, getting in the sweet spot of the 12around them so he basivally parks his chimera" from the griyphons is almost impossible as he has his chimeras inside of the 12" so i can not get into it that easily.

and as of the rulebook FAQ, after moving flat out. if the vehicle gets destroyed the passengers gets removed as casualitys. so just driving up close will hurt me more than bring pain to him i guess. - EDIT : great.. i just read the english FAQ about the flat out movement and just saw that this isnt the case. great that the version in my language is vague about the definition about that.
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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 03:03

@Raziel wrote:
...and as of the rulebook FAQ, after moving flat out. if the vehicle gets destroyed the passengers gets removed as casualitys. so just driving up close will hurt me more than bring pain to him i guess.

Actually, your interpretation is in error, a fairly common one too.(especially against us lol) the ruling is;

If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as
it moved flat out what happens to any embarked
models? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

The key phrase is in the same turn, meaning your turn. As defined by the same FAQ;

Q: What is meant when the term ‘turn’ is used? (p9)
A: Whenever the word turn is used it means player
turn. Otherwise it will clearly state game turn. In a
complete game turn both players get a player turn.
Hence one game turn will comprise two player turns.

This means flat out all you want, as long as you dont end in terrain and fail your roll or tankshock and explode, you are all good! This ruling is to stop exactly that, tankshocking and piling into the existing crater/assaulting the exploded transports occupants

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Raziel
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PostSubject: Re: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 03:22

yeah just as my edit post stated. the spelling in my language (in this case german) but thanks again for clarification
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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 05:42

@Raziel wrote:
yeah just as my edit post stated. the spelling in my language (in this case german) but thanks again for clarification

No problem. I have heard some of the translations can be creative. Then again, I have met players who have interpreted the original English FAQ just as creatively.....

Back to your question though, depending on the mission type, if you stun-lock his vehicles as Skari suggested and then liquifier gun his troops you may have some success as well, T3 guard vs S4 liquifiers is nice. I myself have had much success with this tactic, as well as blowing up his transports when I get the chance. They are much more damaging to guard not being open topped.

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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 12:34

Does the griffon ignore cover, if not try the Baron/Hellion blob rush.

I had a lot of trouble with guard. Try to attack fown 1 flank only, his chimeras only have a 36" range so a single flank attack will limt some of the fire. He'll also probably have to move some of them to get LoS to you, reducing the firepower even more.
Wyches with haywires straight up one side, give them FnP though. Massive Baron blob unit along with a unit of beats charging on the same flank. With the Barons stealth and the beast wound allocation you should be able to weather a bit of fire. Perhaps a unit of bikes zooming on the other flank with heat lances to draw some fire away. remember they have a 3+ save and until he wipes them out he won't know until the end of his shooting phase if the heat lance will be there to take something out. And he will not be able to gryphon them.

Once you are there with this lot then it will be game over.
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 14:37

I've been using Scourges to deepstrike against enemy armored targets that need silencing quick.

5 Scourges with 2 heatlances deepstrike close to the target, only 5 models should have a small footprint and not too many problems getting close. I also use wwp so they have options to use either. Even switching to blasters could work too.

134 points to take a tank out, not a bad trade off and I still use them in non-wwp lists too.

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Skari
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PostSubject: Re: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 16:57

The Heatlance Scourge are becomming a more and more enticing unit for me, the haywire blasters are not really doing it for me.

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 18:48

Quote :
5 Scourges with 2 heatlances deepstrike close to the target, only 5 models should have a small footprint and not too many problems getting close. I also use wwp so they have options to use either. Even switching to blasters could work too.

I use this tactic on a regular basis and can attest that it works wonders. There has only been one time (against guard actually) where they have failed to get a kill.

The really nice thing is that you can pop down, and hit the rear armor of whatever you're going for, without too many problems. The (relatively) low point cost for the unit means that if you only take out a single vehicle, you're typically going to earn your points back.

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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 19:10

I always find deep striking Scourges to be too much of a gamble - you have to hope they hit, or at least hit in range - 9" if they've got heat lances, a big ask - then hope they fire accurately, and then penetrate and roll at least a four on the damage table to properly shut the tank up. Then next turn, they are definitely dead, no question. The unit itself is a suicide squad costing upwards of 130 points. I might just be bitter about them though - they've only ever destroyed one vehicle when I've tried deep striking them. I always say I'm not a gambling man, so can only assume that the amount of times I roll snake eyes to hit when I deep strike my Scourges is some sort of punishment from fate for daring to try and gamble! They just seem to do better starting on the table, popping out from behind cover to halt an armoured advance for me.

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Raziel
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PostSubject: Re: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeWed May 02 2012, 19:20

thank you all for the input you gave me. i got a pretty nice deal for some additional models wich will give me so much more options.

getting :
Archon
2 Boxes scourges
2 Ravagers
1 Raider
1 Vyper
1 box reavers
1 box Warriors
1 box wyches

for only 180€ and all of them are new so i will seriously gear some units like the scourges and the wyches to match the tactica you gave me.

thanks again Very Happy
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blackoutcs
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PostSubject: Re: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeThu May 03 2012, 05:46

In most armies the vehicles are either AV11 ( so easy to kill and therefore cant shoot back with a terrible amount of firepower), AV 12 ( but high point cost so there are not too many AV12 targets to take down and thus we are able to devote all our fire power to those few targets) and lastly the AV13/14 lists ( again, high point cost and low model count so destroying their few vehicles is relatively easy to take down).

Guard sits somewhere in the worst of these worlds for us. Their vehicles are relatively cheap and AV12. AV12 means that those vehicles are going to be as hard for us to take down as any other vehicle in the game. On top of this, their numbers of AV12+ are numerous so that even if we alpha strike there will still be a significant punch back. This significant punch back leaves our vehicles blown up, our wyches in the open, our trueborn obliterated, and any other catastrophic scenario you can imagine. Dark Eldar are meant to break most everything the first turn before we get shot back at and this is most certainly not the case when facing guard.
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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeThu May 03 2012, 12:13

I always have trouble with guard, I have a friend who runs a full mech army similar to what you face but not Griffons, instead Hydras and Punisher tanks. Those things really hurt.

The only viable tactic to beat these guys is go for a wych list with as many haywires as possible, scourges with haywire (controversial but I will explain), Talos's are also useful and Razorwings.

The reason so many haywire is because 9/10 times (thats real mathammer) a strength 8 lance weapon will do nothing to AV 11 let alone AV 12. Haywire negates this and allows for stunlocks.

The razorwings give you super mobility and tank hunting skills as well as options to deal templates (which IG hate).

The Taloi, well those things look scary, they can carry haywire blasters and they can munch through chimeras etc and take serious punishment from IG. Make sure to deploy a few Haemonicles with the wyches for FNP and equip web way portals to get the talos in close.

This sort of lineup has worked in the past for me. Lance spam on the other hand has never worked for me, even though on paper it should.

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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: having some serious trouble against guard   having some serious trouble against guard I_icon_minitimeThu May 03 2012, 18:33

@Grub wrote:
I always have trouble with guard, I have a friend who runs a full mech army similar to what you face but not Griffons, instead Hydras and Punisher tanks. Those things really hurt.

The only viable tactic to beat these guys is go for a wych list with as many haywires as possible, scourges with haywire (controversial but I will explain), Talos's are also useful and Razorwings.

The reason so many haywire is because 9/10 times (thats real mathammer) a strength 8 lance weapon will do nothing to AV 11 let alone AV 12. Haywire negates this and allows for stunlocks.

The razorwings give you super mobility and tank hunting skills as well as options to deal templates (which IG hate).

The Taloi, well those things look scary, they can carry haywire blasters and they can munch through chimeras etc and take serious punishment from IG. Make sure to deploy a few Haemonicles with the wyches for FNP and equip web way portals to get the talos in close.

This sort of lineup has worked in the past for me. Lance spam on the other hand has never worked for me, even though on paper it should.

Absolutely agree with most of this, especially the Lance spam part, they are pathetic for taking out this kind of list.

I tend to run massive Baron/hellion unit, backed up by haywire wyches, beast unit and reavers. Don't particularly like a razorwing for mech but can help against blob IG. I find the chimera carry so little infantry the R/w just ain't worth it.
I'm considering the haywire Talos or scourges as alternatives in all my lists but especially against IG.
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