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Ruke
Wych
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PostSubject: vs Hybrid Guard   vs Hybrid Guard I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 27 2012, 00:45

Just played a 1850 pt list against a guard guy. I ran the WWP list i've been working on (which ill post as well). Annihilation/DoW. First turn, i move my one homun to just over his side of the board and drop my WWP, flat out my other raider behind cover just over my edge of the board. Second turn, I get out all of my units except the reavers and two of the talos, and dropped my second WWP. Charved vect into his command squad, and devoured that (got like 20 some odd wounds, unfortunately on my sweep roll, he rolled a 6 and I rolled a 2), and my wyches took out his leman russ (dual assaulted a russ and chimera, but got not even a glance on the chimera), no other damage inflicted. He then proceeded to flame all of my units into oblivion. At the start of turn 3 I gave up rather than keep playing and get tabled. Bloodbrides was down to vect and the syren. One wyche squad was down to a two shardnets and the hekatrix.

What would you do in this situation?

his list -

HQ
Company Command Squad 145
4 Meltaguns
Chimera
w/ Hull Heavy Flamer

Troops
3x
Veteran Squad 155
3 Meltaguns
Chimera
w/ Hull Heavy Flamer

Platoon Command Squad 105
4 Flamers
Chimera
w/ Hull Heavy Flamer

Infantry Squad 135
1 Meltabomb
Commissar
2 Power Weapons
1 Autocannon
Plasmagun

2x
Infantry Squad 90
1 Meltabomb
1 Power Weapon
1 Autocannon
1 Plasmagun

2x
Special Weapon Squad 50
3 Flamers

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher 165

2x
Hydra Flak Tank Battery 150
2 Hydra Flak Tanks

Fast Attack

2x
Vendetta 130

my list:

Elite
1 Asdrubael Vect
8 Hekatrix Bloodbrides + Razorflails x3
1 Syren + Agoniser

HQ
2 Haemonculi + Liquifier Gun x1 + Webway Portal x1

Troops

9 Wyches + Haywire Grenades + Shardnet & Impaler x2
1 Hekatrix + Haywire Grenades + Agoniser
Troops: Wyches (10#, 170 pts)

2x
3 Wracks, 30 pts = 3 * 10
1 Raider + Shock Prow + Flickerfield

5 Wracks + Liquifier Gun x1

Fast Attack
5 Scourges + Heat Lance x2

5 Reavers + Heat Lance x2
1 Arena Champion

Heavy Support

3x
Talos Pain Engine + TL Liquifier Gun + TL Haywire Blaster

vs Hybrid Guard ?action=view&current=Vassal40kMap

vs Hybrid Guard Vassal10

the big bloody blob on the right is vect and the command squad, to the South of that is the remainder of the command squad and the wyches are at the exploded russ (big red blob there too)

The five red splotches on the left of the map are the scourges... the bloodspot between the wracks and wyches (near center of map) was the only talos i was able to get out.

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barit
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PostSubject: Re: vs Hybrid Guard   vs Hybrid Guard I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 27 2012, 04:09

Guard are always going to be a tough fight, they have good range and lots of bodies. I cant tell you how I would have won that game but here is some thoughts on how you play and the list you were using...

You had first turn and were playing Dow? If that was the case then night fighting will help you to some degree and you can make sure that you are out of the threat range of the search lights but in a position to lay on the pain on turn 2. Since you are only running 2 transports so the vendettas and the hydras wont be popping a vehicle a turn but they will be putting the hurt on your Talos in a big way.

Another issue I see here is your list to be honest and the way that the WWP inevitably trickles those units in. While you get good reserve rolls you should do well but if you get 20% of your army per turn you are in for a world of pain. Vect while nice is a HUGE point sink, you are not really getting the most out of a DE army when playing him below 2000 points.

Also a 'take-one-of-everything' approach while looking really nice on the table doesnt translate to a synergistic army. 2 Dark lances is not enough to be honest and while the Talos is an awesome model and can be good in some situations taking 3 of them is really hurting you here. They can pop vehicles out of the portal and thus cant get into potential combat.

The troop choices you have are very low count, 2 3man wrack squads/5man + wyches are pretty low at this point range. I think this list would struggle in a lot of games to be honest as it is pretty easy to tie down the talos with its random attacks if the rolls go bad for you.

I would drop the 2 of the talos and go for some beasts, they are much more likely to get into combat out of a WWP. You have also over allocated weapons to the blood brides (1 special per 3) and the wyches (1 special per 5) - but your points for them is right so I am guessing the squad should be 11 members.

Then comes the list point count, injecting your list I am only pulling down 1664 points, where are you additional 200 points gone? Was Vect riding his Dias?

Trying to keep with your theme while retaining the Talos (which I get the feeling you love) here is a list that you might want to try:

############ HQ
2 x Haemy with Liquifier/Webway
190

############ Elites
2 x Trueborn with 2 blasters in Venoms with dual SC
262

############ Troops
2 x 3 Wracks with Raider with Aethersails (haemys go here they can then move 12" +2D6 and still disembark)
3 x wracks with raider
10 x Wyches/1 Hekatrix, 2 shardnets, agoniser/blast pistol/haywires (if you can blow up the vehicle you surround it and stun it to death, no one can disembark sicne you surround it and they all die)
10 x Wyches/1 Hekatrix, 2 shardnets, agoniser/blast pistol
630

############ Fast
Beast Masters x 3 packs with 2 Razorwings each
Beast Masters x 2 packs with 4 Khymeras each
412

############ Heavy
Ravager with 3 DL
Talos with Chain-Flails and TL Heat Lance
Talos with Chain-Flails and TL Heat Lance
355

That takes you out to 1849 and gives you:
2 WWP delivery teams, 2 MC's in the heavy slots, more lance/Blaster shots for dealing with vehicles at the START of the game, plenty of Wyches and poisoned shots (which you were really lacking).

You can drop the liquifers and a few other bits to get those wrack squads up to 5 members a piece which will improve their survivability.
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PostSubject: Re: vs Hybrid Guard   vs Hybrid Guard I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 27 2012, 06:13

First off... Vect earned his points back, and even when the entire bloodbride squad fell to ash around the flamers, he didn't suffer a single wound. Point sink, yes, but in all the games I've run him in, he has earned his points back (at least) normally more.

Second, my points were correct for each squad. 9 wyches, 1 heck = 10 models +2 special weapons. I use Army Builder.

Third, my WWP always works fine, i also deepstrike my scourges and heatlance something (this was the first game where I didn't pop it). If I put more mech on the board on turn 1, all it will do is be a waste of points and get shot down horribly... the only reason I was able to keep a raider through turn 1 was because I moved flat out, so the most they were able to do was get a glance (stunned result). My other raider went boom turn 1 along with 1 of the wracks (had most of my dudes out of LoS behind the WWP, so my opponent only had limited ability to shoot at them)

Fourth, Putting a ravager in this list would be a waste of points, since i cant pop it through the portal and everything they have will be focused on it turn 1... or i have to wait a turn after it comes on the board to shoot, unless i pay to DS it... for this list the Talos are a much better choice as they can get into combat quickly from mid board and have a better chance at popping the armor 11 and 12 vehicles I face.

the way you have your beastmasters set up above doesnt make any sense... you have one unit with all the wounds, and another with all the invul saves... both are going to eat it quickly.

you cant disembark the same turn you use aethersails, it says so right in the description of them

=====================================================================================

That being said, my problem wasn't his mech... I was actually dealing with that ok... kind of... my problem was the flamers on his mech... as soon as my turn rolled around he took out vects squad (except for vect and the syren) and almost a whole wych squad, and a talos (from shooting, and crap saves on my part). After that, I didn't see that I would have enough AI to finish off his dudes after I opened his cans...

I'm thinking maybe I should try and squeeze in blasterborn (sans venom) to help open cans before my dudes get to them, and maybe blast pistols in all my wych/bb squads since im almost always within charge range as soon as I exit the portal...

lose the reavers, snag 2x3blasterborn on foot, give one of the talos a heatlance puts me at 1848.

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PostSubject: Re: vs Hybrid Guard   vs Hybrid Guard I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 27 2012, 06:47

I just double checked, there is no way your list is 1850 points, 1627 at best. 430 on HQ - 157 on Elites - 410 on Troops - 300 on Fast Attack - 330 on Heavy.

No worries about Vect, play how you want mate! But a single guy making his points back doesnt win you the game. My mistake about the Aethersails.

As for bringing more mech there would be 2 Venoms, 3 Raiders and 1 Ravager, triple your original number. The best packs can be arranged how you like, it is just how I run them.

The main point I was trying to get across was that you are not able to pop vehicles reliably with what you were fielding and anything that comes out of the WWP needs to be in combat to ensure it cant get nuked via shooting in the following phase. As for WWP always working, well obviously not...

The blasterborn are fine but they need to be on the table and within range before your CC comes out, no other way to do that but with them being on the table turn 1 and in a transport. Talos cannot be relied on for vehicle popping, bad rolls on their combat and they are screwed even with the MC advantage of 2d6 pen - they still need to hit in most cases...
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PostSubject: Re: vs Hybrid Guard   vs Hybrid Guard I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 27 2012, 07:33

Ive always found playing guard that those Mad hellhound/flamer units must die first, and ravagers are the best tool for that. Their 24" range pieplates from battlecannons really dont do well against our vehicles; they are only on target like 1/3rd of the time, and typically scatter off them enough we dont need to worry too much. Maybe swapping out a Talos for a RJF, free deepstrike, Aerial assault, plus it does keep with the coveny "feel". Once its dropped its missle load it can harass the heck out of him too. Its 2 lances versus 3, its more points, but it sure can thin the blob of troops. His transports have weak rear armour too so Dissies wouldnt really hurt you that much either; just means his heavys are still meant for Talos duty.

You could also do the lanceborn; 2-36" range shots may help out; plant them in the middle and go.

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PostSubject: Re: vs Hybrid Guard   vs Hybrid Guard I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 27 2012, 08:35

As funny as it sounds, part of my problem is that I get really good reserve rolls... I normally get all but one squad and 2 talos (thats how it always ends up... 1 squad 2 talos) out in the first round... in this case, I wasn't able to utilize my second WWP because of DoW...

How does everyone deal with DoW deployments in a WWP list?

@barit - there's 2 squads of wyches

edit: I'm thinking of taking out the talos completely and replacing them with heatlance units... does WWP lists work well without talos?

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PostSubject: Re: vs Hybrid Guard   vs Hybrid Guard I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 30 2012, 17:49

I play mostly at 2,000 points and consider my wwp escorts non-disposable and worth keeping so I tend to invest a little more into the escorts – they need to be scoring in objective missions and durable enough to survive annihilation missions.

Looking at your list we have a similar method, one wwp on a raider and the other on foot. Raider wwp goes for an aggressive drop while the foot wwp is either a backup or is placed depending on the game.

For DoW and I have 1st move then I use the foot squad of wracks as my starting unit and let the raider wwp enter turn 1 from the board edge. Against IG and gunline opponents I have put the raider wwp on the board and put the foot wwp haemy in reserve. Idea is “pray” the haemy gets released 2nd turn, come out of the portal and move 6” closer and then place the next portal. This has worked for me before but there is some luck involved and hardly a sure thing.

As for the Talos, I love them too much to not include them however I use Talos with twin-linked heat lances. Portal + movement + 9” heatlance range usually always gives me armor to shoot at. They fulfill a dual role in both anti-armor and anti-infantry and are relatively cheap at it too.

If I “had” to drop the Talos I would consider:

3 Trueborn with 3 blasters and
Another squad of scourges
And maybe a squad of 10 warriors and a dark lance.
= 330

You could replace the warriors with another squad of trueborn, 4 with 4 blasters. I do find them useful in a wwp list and with the 6” move with 18” range I find they have plenty of targets to choose from – just ensure the wwp is placed near cover so they can run into it and fire.

However, I going to say do not drop the Talos and switch to heat lances.

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PostSubject: Re: vs Hybrid Guard   vs Hybrid Guard I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 30 2012, 18:00

I think that it may help changing out a talos for a chronos... I can push pain tokens onto my talos and wych units earlier on to increase their survival... also, both of my homun are in raiders (in the picture above, one of the raiders had blowded up)

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PostSubject: Re: vs Hybrid Guard   vs Hybrid Guard I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 14:19

Nope, that would be the opposite.

You certainly have your own ideas, try them out and let experience be your teacher.

Good luck and happy hunting!

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@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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PostSubject: Re: vs Hybrid Guard   vs Hybrid Guard I_icon_minitimeTue May 01 2012, 18:32

Quote :
Nope, that would be the opposite.

What would be the opposite of what?

I played a game yesterday against daemons using the modified list (scourges, 2 trueborn squads, and a chronos with 2 talos). I got some really poor rolls with my deathstar (which I ran into ku'gath), and took more wounds from necrotic aura (or whatever the 6" Nurgle aura thingy is) than anything else, since he could use that in his shooting phase even if he is in assault. I didnt get my chronos out early enough to help much, but the scourges were able to take out a demon prince on turn 2, which was nice. In the end, I lost due to kill points...

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