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 Help with my Tactica

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lonephoenix
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PostSubject: Re: Help with my Tactica   Help with my Tactica - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 17 2012, 18:42

@Raneth wrote:
I have a really hard time justifying the Succubus. The number of Wych squads taken into consideration, Haemies are almost mandatory!

Thor wrote:
If you're playing an aggressive assault force then I will note that the Scourges are a fairly unoptimal option for the army.

Really? I myself used to think RJBs were -strictly- superior, but as it turned out the Scourges' 4+ ASv proves to be a huge boon. After all, AP5 runs rampant throughout every Codex! It's true the Jetbikes are more versatile, but if you're going for straight AT there's no denying the Scourges do it cheaper and are more resilient to boot!

The Succubus was added to give the extra CC flair I need along side the Archon to really scare them for what they need to be shooting at. The Archon is there mostly to offer as much troop destruction potential as humanly possible. The Succubus, getting 5 attacks with an Agonizer on the Charge, stacked with 2 Hekagonizer swings, is going to be dumping a lot of dangerous wounds into targets that won't get FNP, could reasonable tarpit and even KILL an IC like Meph, and since FNP isn't really doing me any good whatsoever, I don't see the loss in the long run.

Against MEQ, I don't see the role of my FNP when I've got a 4++ in CC, and frankly, my wyches do end up getting shot more by instant kill weapons than they do with weapons that they would actually get FNP against. This is part of the reason for dropping my Haemons. I can run with bare Haemons, and remove a bit of Wargear for my Archon without much issue, or I could swap the Archon for the Succ to get what I need out of them *(Minus giving them Grenades..) Or take a VB on the Archon and ditching the CF/SF. I feel that CF/SF is really what intimidates people with Archons, Without running 4 troops of 8-9 wyches, I don't know how I can make them intimidating enough. With most of the wounds I put on targets being saved via FNP or Armor, I think getting more Agos into the mix, especially with a high attack count, would be intimidating as sin.

But above all else, I'm not sure if I've lost too much AT by going this route.


Last edited by lonephoenix on Tue Apr 17 2012, 18:43; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : English is hard.)
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Raneth
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Raneth

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PostSubject: Re: Help with my Tactica   Help with my Tactica - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 17 2012, 18:52

Quote :
Against MEQ, I don't see the role of my FNP when I've got a 4++ in CC, and frankly, my wyches do end up getting shot more by instant kill weapons than they do with weapons that they would actually get FNP against.

Wow! I'd love to play against that MEQ guy Very Happy

EDIT for sounding like a douche: anything S6 or higher is usually aimed at my Mech

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Last edited by Raneth on Tue Apr 17 2012, 18:54; edited 1 time in total
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lonephoenix
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PostSubject: Re: Help with my Tactica   Help with my Tactica - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 17 2012, 18:53

@Raneth wrote:
Quote :
Against MEQ, I don't see the role of my FNP when I've got a 4++ in CC, and frankly, my wyches do end up getting shot more by instant kill weapons than they do with weapons that they would actually get FNP against.

Wow! I'd love to play against that MEQ guy Very Happy

This is also because he's blown up most of my paper planes by T3 Smile

Granted, I'm failing to recall that I get FNP if I fail my Dodge save... Maybe I should be reworking this...
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callofdoobie
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PostSubject: Re: Help with my Tactica   Help with my Tactica - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 08:56

Sounds like you're forgetting some important rules(wyches w fnp are a nightmare to get rid of). Also its REALLY important to understand when to be aggressive and when not to be, Dark Eldar are not Orks, you don't just run forward and win. Were the most versatile offensive army in the game; we can out shoot anyone who can beat us in CC(Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Tyranids, etc) and we can butcher any army who could beat us in a fire fight(Tau, Guard, Vanilla Marines, Eldar, etc).




MOST IMPORTANTLY....Dip, duck, dodge, and hide....NEVER EVER fight fair...it will cost you...


Best of luck, if it makes you feel any better Dark Eldar are amazingly good at killing Marines so once you figure out your tactics it should be smooth sailing.
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lonephoenix
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PostSubject: Re: Help with my Tactica   Help with my Tactica - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 13:41

@callofdoobie wrote:
Sounds like you're forgetting some important rules(wyches w fnp are a nightmare to get rid of). Also its REALLY important to understand when to be aggressive and when not to be, Dark Eldar are not Orks, you don't just run forward and win. Were the most versatile offensive army in the game; we can out shoot anyone who can beat us in CC(Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Tyranids, etc) and we can butcher any army who could beat us in a fire fight(Tau, Guard, Vanilla Marines, Eldar, etc).




MOST IMPORTANTLY....Dip, duck, dodge, and hide....NEVER EVER fight fair...it will cost you...


Best of luck, if it makes you feel any better Dark Eldar are amazingly good at killing Marines so once you figure out your tactics it should be smooth sailing.

I'm getting there I think!

Everyone in this thread is being beyond helpful, and I realize I don't take every piece of advice right out the door (I was skeptical about Blasterborn for a week or two.) but I do eventually "get" it all, and implement it in my own weird fashion. I'm aware of why the Harlequins don't work, but I might find a way to make it possible.

Once I really master my wyches, I think this army will completely change in my view of it.
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Fatuous
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PostSubject: Re: Help with my Tactica   Help with my Tactica - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 15:44

@Raneth wrote:
Quote :
Mephisto.... I want to say hide from him  but sooner or later you are gonna have to tackle him. Shooting, lots and lots of shooting is a good start. Or you have to tarpit, but eventually, even then you have to take him on. Again I would rate the Shard net here, and maybe even swop out some wyches for blood brides. Drop the HWG and 1 wyche and it won’t even cost you anymore 6, ago, 2 shardnets, and suck out some of his attacks. Then jump him next turn, when he can’t target the unit that piles in, incubi might be good here, but still a bit risky. Or if u keep a haemie in that unit..... then he will have to start separating attacks if he wants to kill the haemie and the unit...... with 2 less attacks from SNs....... that will certainly help nullify him a bit, but the FnP wont help much v him anyway so again I’d save points for killers in this instance.

Marines are Marines, but Mephiston is an issue all by himself. It's so important to contain him that I can't let the above answer stand.

Meph moves as if he had a jump pack. That means he's free to decide where and when to cause mayhem, and this is the first issue to be remedied. As said before, he's easy to hide, so don't count on getting many shots in.

So, engage him in combat asap. BUT DON'T DO IT WITH ANYTHING BUT BASIC WYCHES! Incubi, for all their awesome, will be chopped apart by Meph in short order. You need three things: speed, Ward Saves, Agoniser. Keep it simple.

Not sure what part of avoid, shoot and tarpit you disagree with, unless it is the incubi bit, which if so, think you may have missed the suggestion to do this the turn after the wyches assualt. Meph can't even target them that turn...... but you are right that if you don't kill him that turn, he will wipe them out the following turn, and defeat the wyches via combat resolution.

THB it has been a while since I saw Mephisto, so had a quick recheck of his rules.........

I still think shooting is valid, and also BBs have some benefits over regular wyches (more shardnets and more ago attacks), but can see the point.

Specific to his rules, I did notice the following.......

1 He doesn't appear to have an INV save, unless I missed something, which is quite possible. Horrible toughness to beat, and a very good save, but with no inv save......... that should even things up a bit.
2 As we knew, he is a psyyker, but his wings are an ability so he does at least have to roll for it (no biggy, he won't fail it all that much).
3 He is NOT and IC, yes this means he is easier to hide as far as his model goes, but actually opens him up to a lot of return fire that he can not allocate to grunts, so any DL shots you get on him..... will have to be allocated to him.
4 He has fleet. So that deffo does increase his threat range. But even v BA, DE should really have the mobility advantage.

So back to beating face.

I can see 3 main ways to take this guy down:

1 Assault.
2 Shooting.
3 Haemie archane wargear (Kin gift specifically, but others will work).

Assault:

Agree wyches are still your main gals for this, but still believe that BBs have some benefits. Drop the HWGs on one unit and they only 'cost' 1 point more per BB, can bring more nets, and more ago attacks. If you can drop Meph down from 5 attacks to 3, that will save u wyches. If you can drop it even further then great, but I prob won't want to invest too many points in BBs.

Incubi could still be effective, but you HAVE to use them to swing the CC your way, they can not attack first, as you have to ensure that they cannot be targetted. I think you will NEED FC here too........ so wyches or BBs are likely to be the winners.

1 main consideration (and from your previous posts, this does seem to have happened), once engaged, you really do have to protect that unit. You need to make sure that they can not bail him out by engaging as well, rinsing the wyches

Reduced attacks AND give him a tasty IC will aid you a bit too, and a sucubus would be prime candidate here for me, just don't get too attached to her............ Throw her in to an assualt as well, and those 3 attacks will have to be split if he wants to hit the unit and the sucubus.

Shooting:

Agreed as a non IC, he is much easier to hide from sight. But again, with a 12" move and shoot ability on a venom or ravenger....... getting shots in shouldn't be impossible, and he cannot hide inside units, which does make him vulnerable.

Mephisto is EXPENSIVE....... 2 kitted out ravenger expensive. If his death is that important..... hit him with 2 Very Happy How ever you do it, keep moving above 6" so you are harder to hit in CC.

Haemie toys:

Usually these are expensive, and/or so situational that I don't put them in balanced lists.... If you know that you are facing Mephisto for the next 5 games, then all tailoring arguements aside, you need to plan for his demise.

Now these are pretty much all going to work around the principle that tormentor nades stack. If they don't and I believe they do (please post evidence if I am wrong) then none of this is going to be reliable.

Basically, there are 2 pieces of kit that could help here, but to get any chance of it really working with any reliability, you ahve to start reducing their Ld, so TGLs are going to be key. Rock as many boats forwards as you can, drop the Ld by at least 4, the more the merrier and then hit with the kin gift. Failed Ld and bye bye. If you are going to invest those sorts of points.... then it is a shame not to take the other one (names are escaping me today), small blast on target Ld to wound. Get the Ld down to half, and then instant kill due ot double St v Ld.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Help with my Tactica   Help with my Tactica - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 16:23

And it gets so much better if the Succubus rolls Serpentine for that lovely WS9.
But yes, like the previous poster said: Don't get attached to her. She might be hot and all, but she still dies quite easily. Makes me wonder why they didn't give her a 3++ and Lelith a 2++.

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Help with my Tactica   Help with my Tactica - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 18 2012, 21:02

@Fatuous wrote:
unless it is the incubi bit, which if so, think you may have missed the suggestion to do this the turn after the wyches assualt

I have! Your posts can be quite stretchy and I'm not the most diligent of people. Razz

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