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 Baron and WWP - Worth it?

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Unoi90
Hellion
Unoi90


Posts : 26
Join date : 2012-03-22
Location : Milan, Italy

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PostSubject: Baron and WWP - Worth it?   Baron and WWP - Worth it? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 13 2012, 09:20

Do you think a squad of 9 helions (helliarc with agoniser) with the baron could be a nice add to a WWP list (With no vehicles at all)?
They can add mobility, and they can enter from the table edge and stick to the ground to keep an objective.
They can emerge from the portal too, and strike at a squad 21-26" away!

My question is : does a WWP-list really need him? I mean, it's a 274 points squad (And that's 1/6 of point at 1500).
They can't really be a threat to vehicles, and even against infantry they could lose.
I can't really find an answer to this question.

Pros:
- +1 to initiative roll (Nice add for being first and drop the portal!)
- Baron S6 on the carge (He can be a threat to vehicles)
- Very, very fast
- Hit and Run
- A troop that can hold an objective really well against shooting.

Cons:
- 274 points
- No so strong against infantry, against MEQ they can kill too few of them and they have only a 5+ save, against GEQ they kill a lot of models but they get kicked by all those S3 attacks. (I think)
- Useless against vehicles

Any idea? (I really like the +1 to the initiative roll, after all Razz )
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Grumpy Kwi
Nightmare Doll on the Loose
Grumpy Kwi


Posts : 362
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : San Jose, CA

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PostSubject: Re: Baron and WWP - Worth it?   Baron and WWP - Worth it? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 13 2012, 14:59

OK, before anyone responds with some advice I would really love to hear wether or not you have actually tried this combo or not.

I have played several games with this combo and can smell out "armchair archon" statements a mile away (or kilometers away for you metric types). I got no problem with the guesses of how this looks on paper but if you got no actual experience then just say so (qualify yourself) before digging in.

I can't dig in right now but later today I will bore you with a wall of text on this combo - as you can tell I am a little passionate about this and want the Baron and the WWP to get a fair shake.

more later...

_________________
@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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Ruke
Wych
Ruke


Posts : 731
Join date : 2012-02-18
Location : WayX

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PostSubject: Re: Baron and WWP - Worth it?   Baron and WWP - Worth it? I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 13 2012, 21:22

If you look at my recent WWP list, i field 14 hellions (including helliarch and agoniser), and baron out of a webway portal, also a beast pack... I put Baron with the beasts (for the PGL)... The +1 earned me a tie on the init roll, and a one on the reroll lost it for me... Baron died turn 3 shooting (having not caused any damage) from two wounds allocated to him... (rolled snakeyes on the save... amazing... >.<)... So, due to bad luck, my experience with the baron out of a wwp was underwhelming... the hellions however did really well on their own taking out two ork squads (one trukk full and one battlewagon full), and the beastmen (sans baron) took out a trukk and ork squad... I can only assume that he would have been a better investment had he not bit the bullet so early on... Baron with beasts out of a portal are decent, as are hellions out of a portal - final stance

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Grumpy Kwi
Nightmare Doll on the Loose
Grumpy Kwi


Posts : 362
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : San Jose, CA

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PostSubject: Re: Baron and WWP - Worth it?   Baron and WWP - Worth it? I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 14 2012, 00:06

My response to Unoi90 post:

@Unoi90 wrote:
Do you think a squad of 9 helions (helliarc with agoniser) with the baron could be a nice add to a WWP list (With no vehicles at all)?

I still use a raider to get the wwp out aggressively but the Baron and Hellions are a “slam-dunk” for me and I wouldn’t use them (the Baron and Hellions) in anything else other than a WWP list (in a rush list they do not make sense to me).

Quote :
They can add mobility, and they can enter from the table edge and stick to the ground to keep an objective.
They can emerge from the portal too, and strike at a squad 21-26" away!

I sometimes claim them “deep striking” but absolutely correct.

Quote :
My question is : does a WWP-list really need him? I mean, it's a 274 points squad (And that's 1/6 of point at 1500).

The Baron really finds his synergy in a wwp but I can’t say a wwp “needs” him. I have Coven themed wwp lists that are just as productive just as I have Archon and Haemy wwp lists that I have found success with as well.

Quote :
They can't really be a threat to vehicles, and even against infantry they could lose.

I disagree, I have used both the Baron and Hellions on their own against chimeras and hell hounds and rhinos and have had successful results. In an IG game I got the strength drug and managed to acquire 2 tokens – the squad was strength 6 on the charge and the Baron was strength 7 on the charge (30 something attacks at that strength is productive against vehicles. Even at strength 4 I have “shaken” vehicles when I needed to silence them when all else fails in the shooting phase.

Quote :
Pros:
- +1 to initiative roll (Nice add for being first and drop the portal!)
- Baron S6 on the carge (He can be a threat to vehicles)
- Very, very fast
- Hit and Run
- A troop that can hold an objective really well against shooting.

There are more Pro’s, see my list below.

Quote :
Cons:
- 274 points

I do not look at the Baron and Hellions as one cost. I see an HQ that is barely 100 points and a troop choice that is cheaper than wyches in a raider and just as mobile as them and only 1 kill point!

Quote :
- No so strong against infantry, against MEQ they can kill too few of them and they have only a 5+ save, against GEQ they kill a lot of models but they get kicked by all those S3 attacks. (I think)
On paper that is a fair assessment, I thought so too until I used them. I found the combat drug really makes them better and their mobility gets them into combat to avoid being shot as extremely useful. If you combine the shooting phase with the assault phase you shouldn’t be getting “kicked” as bad however I tend to “soften” targets before I charge in, sometimes other units shoot at the target to ensure I have number superiority. To be honest, however, I find they do just fine on their own and any other help from other units will cause them to wipe their target out. Remember they have just as many attacks as wyches do but they are stronger than wyches thus the “death-by-armor-save” effect is much stronger – not uncommon for my hellions to outperform wyches on the charge in a 1 to 1 comparison.

Quote :
- Useless against vehicles

As I mentioned before, they are plenty useful against vehicles when “you have to” use them that way. I do not go around looking for vehicles unless I want to surround a rhino completely and try wrecking it. I have wrecked rhinos before at strength 4 but often I just “shake” them.


Now for my experiences.


The synergy I have found in WWP lists is that he has utility in both parts of executing a wwp list, deploying the portal and joining units emerging from the portal.

Often, the way I use the Baron is by starting him on the table next to a wwp Haemy in a wrack raider. The Baron is placed on the table solo but next to the wracks raider, sometime screened by it. The raider moves 12” forward and the haemy/wrack squad disembarks into cover where you want to the portal. I use a squad of 8 wracks so I will trail a wrack or two to ensure the Baron can join the squad by simply moving 12” (and being 2” from the trailing wrack). FnP, majority T4 in 3+ cover makes this a durable unit that could weather a turn of shooting.

Once the portal is down and my units are emerging, the Baron will join a unit that he would benefit from him and the token(s) the most. Sometimes I will join him to reavers or scourges based on what the threats are and what becomes available from reserves. In some games I have had the baron change squads several times passing the tokens around like a pizza delivery boy – the Baron is a very busy man and he is not necessarily looking for a fight but rather just buffing units most of the time.

Lately I have been putting both wwp Haemys into a single wrack squad on a raider thus making them “fearless” and when units start emerging from the portal the Baron can have the option of taking 2 of the 3 tokens buffing the unit he joins with Furious Charge. Deploying both portals is optional with this setup – often I am saving the 2nd portal for a tactical 2nd turn drop based on the units that are still in reserve, where the opponent is, where the objectives are etc.,

I do sometimes use Harlequins and in these instances the Baron is sometimes used simply in case the opponent gets past the veil, the squad would have a nice 3+ save. The Baron’s role here is diminished in the deploying the portal, he is just mainly used with units after the portal is opened so I will often put him in the portal.

Here are my “pro’s & con’s” based on my experiences:

Pro’s for deploying the portal:
He helps get the first move (important for wwp lists)
He gives “stealth” to the deploying wwp squad (I use him starting on the table)
He provides defensive grenades if charged
Does help with wound allocation

Pro’s after the portal is dropped:
He makes Hellions scoring – a troop choice that is highly mobile coming out of a portal
He takes tokens to a selected emerging portal unit he joins (based on my deployment strategy)
He gives grenades to selected emerging portal unit he joins
He is strong enough glance/pen vehicles, often getting to Str. 7 on the charge
And obviously the Hit & Run buffs he offers
He is obviously cheap for an HQ unit with a shadowfield

Con’s
Not a CC monster (no power weapon)
Only two wounds
Being on a skyboard makes him hard to hide
He adds another kill point to the wwp deploying squad
Dawn of War he is not starting on the board

As for Hellions in a WWP – there is no other reason to use Hellions other than in a WWP list in my eyes. The portal keeps them safe.
The Hellions have a huge “threat bubble” from a portal
They are forgiving if the portal is not aggressively placed or placed poorly.
Combined with the shooting phase, they can hit hard enough to confidently win combat on their own.

The Hellions can surround a transport and can damage vehicles “in a pinch” – not their main tactic but they can be useful this way if there are no other viable targets. I remember one game where the Hellions had the strength drug and I was forced to charge a Hell Hound after every attempt of trying to stun it with shooting weapons all failed – I had to do something and my last option was trying to charge it with Hellions and hope I can keep it from firing this turn. Luckily, I did manage to shake it and was pleased as punch with that result. I do not usually do this but I know it is an option, in that game, my Hellions were strength 6 on the charge (strength + furious charge, the Baron was strength 7 on the charge) and that does offer a decent option when “in a pinch”.

I think what surprised me most once I gave Hellions a shot in a wwp list was their capability to get into combat out of the portal and avoid being shot at. They are not a heavy hammer unit and I can count on them not to wipe out their target however if they get bored in a prolonged combat of attrition I have discovered their Hit & Run ability is literally a “sling shot”. I remember one game where my Hellions were charged by a squadron of Sentinels in my deployment zone. Not being able to do much damage against them I survived the round and got a decent 14” H&R roll that put me just past the mid-line (the Baron helps immensely here) and with a 12” move and a fleet move in my turn I was instantly in the opponents deployment zone charging his command squad that was hiding in ruins within 6” of his board edge. This kind of movement and ability to choose a target to charge has shown up in every game and just gives them some serious longevity. Many times the unit is usually available in the later part of the game with 2 or 3 tokens, I even had the Baron making the later part of the game going around and charging rhinos (just happens).

Those are my findings based on using them in various lists. I am now experimenting with 2 squads of Hellions and my latest experiment of putting Incubi in the portal and having the Baron join them instead.

I really think that someone with better experience than me can really make this work – I am confident a system like this can be fairly competitive and 6th edition will just make it even better.

_________________
@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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Unoi90
Hellion
Unoi90


Posts : 26
Join date : 2012-03-22
Location : Milan, Italy

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PostSubject: Re: Baron and WWP - Worth it?   Baron and WWP - Worth it? I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 14 2012, 11:06

Hey, thanks for all these answers Razz
Yes, indeed, I'm an "Armchair Archon" and a pretty noob one : I've never tried this list and I don't play so much (like 1 time every 2 months or something like this... damn university Evil or Very Mad )

I haven't thought about the opportunity to deploy the baron with haemys and wracks and now i see that this is really a nice tactic! (Boosting a unit coming out a portal to make it really nasty) but I think this is a too expensive setup for a 1500 pts list, but I think that would really shine at 1850-2000 pts!
[EDIT: But what if opponent tried to steal you initiative and rolls 6? Against a shooty opponent this can be nasty, don't you think?
If the field is not so good (And that's is what happens here in Milano, usually) you can't hide really well the raider/venom and the Baron. And he can shoot all his weapons against these 2 units. If the vehicles goes down is a bad thing, if the baron goes down is bad too (Yes, he has a shadowfield, but against s<6 weapons that's a risk!}

I haven't thought the Hellions could be a threat to vehicles because I have not 2 haemys and wracks and the roll for drugs make them really a threat 1 time on 6. (+ 1 S)
But shaking vehicles is nice too, after all, especially in my list where these is not so much AT.

Thank you for all these advices I'll try them in my next game (And this could be really near! Like the next weekend!)
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Godreas
Hellion
Godreas


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Join date : 2011-11-30
Location : Bucharest, Romania

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PostSubject: Re: Baron and WWP - Worth it?   Baron and WWP - Worth it? I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 15 2012, 20:23

I have been testing for ETC for the past 3 weeks and I have tried to use the baron because I love the idea of having the first turn all the time... but for me he just does not work on the table

him with 7-10 helions does something against troops but with a 5+ they either get shot up after coming out of the portal or get into combat but exit the next turn with 4ish less in number

I love his ability with +1 roll and s6 but he just does not shine in my eyes when he is actually on the table
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Grumpy Kwi
Nightmare Doll on the Loose
Grumpy Kwi


Posts : 362
Join date : 2011-06-02
Location : San Jose, CA

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PostSubject: Re: Baron and WWP - Worth it?   Baron and WWP - Worth it? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 17 2012, 15:06

I am now using the Baron to join 2 Haemys and a wrack on a raider. The squad is fearless and the Baron can take 2 tokens once the units start emerging. I would only drop 1 portal and save the other for a 2nd turn drop if I thought the portal needed to get closer with the units that would be left in the reserve come turn 3. Dropping both portals is also an option - you could conga line the wrack and get a decent spread as I often find the first portal is usually the best position and there is no need for another portal (I have twice now just not dropped the 2nd portal simply cause I didn't need it.

Imagining the Baron joining a squad of Incubi with 2 tokens...

Also remember that with foot squads, when they emerge and move their 6" the Baron can move 2" beyond the lead squad member, this will give the squad 3" more charge range (2" coherency + 1" base). If the Baron can get into base contact with the target with the Incubi (for example) then the opponent will have to counter charge and everyone sgould be able to fight.

With Hellions, I wouldn't run them less than 10 and you will need the shooting phase or some help before they charge but I haven't had a problem with them losing combat. Sure, some will die but I run several other squads the Baron can join so the reduced hellion squad can go camp an objective as they should at least have a token.

_________________
@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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