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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 07 2011, 10:16

Oh, I definitely agree there's a "Commorrite Dollar", I just take a far more feudal approach to the workings of a Kabal. After all, a basic civilian will have little else to trade with, as he won't be skilled enough to trade products/produce.
Similarly, trade at the higher levels of Commorragh is too large-scale to trade in money, and in a society like Commoragh, favours are everything. Why accept money from a client Kabal when you could simply ask for service? Why would a Cult want money from a Kabal when the Kabal can simply provide the weapons/vehicles/services/protection, and "cut out the middle-man", as it were?

As I've said, Kabals, given that you could say that their main export is protection (and pain and slavery, but those are mostly reserved for damned mon-keigh), they're already trading in favours. Money simply isn't necessary to them at all. Perhaps souls might be traded occasionally, but to me, that's the closest they come to currency at that level, and that's less of a currency, and more of a bulk resource.

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Xelkireth
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 07 2011, 10:21

@Aroshamash wrote:
Oh, I definitely agree there's a "Commorrite Dollar", I just take a far more feudal approach to the workings of a Kabal. After all, a basic civilian will have little else to trade with, as he won't be skilled enough to trade products/produce.

Similarly, trade at the higher levels of Commorragh is too large-scale to trade in money, and in a society like Commoragh, favours are everything. Why accept money from a client Kabal when you could simply ask for service? Why would a Cult want money from a Kabal when the Kabal can simply provide the weapons/vehicles/services/protection, and "cut out the middle-man", as it were?

As I've said, Kabals, given that you could say that their main export is protection (and pain and slavery, but those are mostly reserved for damned mon-keigh), they're already trading in favours. Money simply isn't necessary to them at all. Perhaps souls might be traded occasionally, but to me, that's the closest they come to currency at that level, and that's less of a currency, and more of a bulk resource.
Aroshamash, you've persuaded me. Though... I still think they're "Drow in Spaaaaace." Until the Black Library stops writing it that way, I'm sticking with it.
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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 07 2011, 10:27

@Xelkireth wrote:
@Aroshamash wrote:
Oh, I definitely agree there's a "Commorrite Dollar", I just take a far more feudal approach to the workings of a Kabal. After all, a basic civilian will have little else to trade with, as he won't be skilled enough to trade products/produce.

Similarly, trade at the higher levels of Commorragh is too large-scale to trade in money, and in a society like Commoragh, favours are everything. Why accept money from a client Kabal when you could simply ask for service? Why would a Cult want money from a Kabal when the Kabal can simply provide the weapons/vehicles/services/protection, and "cut out the middle-man", as it were?

As I've said, Kabals, given that you could say that their main export is protection (and pain and slavery, but those are mostly reserved for damned mon-keigh), they're already trading in favours. Money simply isn't necessary to them at all. Perhaps souls might be traded occasionally, but to me, that's the closest they come to currency at that level, and that's less of a currency, and more of a bulk resource.
Aroshamash, you've persuaded me. Though... I still think they're "Drow in Spaaaaace." Until the Black Library stops writing it that way, I'm sticking with it.

Hehe. I've gotten my first convert! My evil influence begins to spread... Twisted Evil *cackles* *thunder crashes* Today, Xelkireth. Tomorrow, world domination!

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Xelkireth
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 07 2011, 10:30

We're were working along the same lines of logic, just reversed. Yours makes more sense. *shrug*
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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 07 2011, 11:12

I know, it's just I, like all Archons, like to pretend I have evil minions. I didn't mean to sound smug...

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Xelkireth
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 07 2011, 12:27

Lol. You didn't sound overly smug. Wink It was quite acceptable.
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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 07 2011, 19:16

Quote :
I still think they're "Drow in Spaaaaace." Until the Black Library stops writing it that way, I'm sticking with it.
For me they are somthing more than drow in space...and much more cooler

Aroshamash post make lot of sence, but one thing still interest me....do they(DE) have banks?? if they do, there is no hope for them....

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Xelkireth
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 07 2011, 20:43

They are cooler than "Drow in Spaaaaace." However, the visual works. The bonus side to them being "Drow in Spaaaaace," is no Lloth. Frakking hate that whore.
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killfrenzy
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 07 2011, 20:46

@Aroshamash wrote:
Oh, I definitely agree there's a "Commorrite Dollar", I just take a far more feudal approach to the workings of a Kabal. After all, a basic civilian will have little else to trade with, as he won't be skilled enough to trade products/produce.
Similarly, trade at the higher levels of Commorragh is too large-scale to trade in money, and in a society like Commoragh, favours are everything. Why accept money from a client Kabal when you could simply ask for service? Why would a Cult want money from a Kabal when the Kabal can simply provide the weapons/vehicles/services/protection, and "cut out the middle-man", as it were?

As I've said, Kabals, given that you could say that their main export is protection (and pain and slavery, but those are mostly reserved for damned mon-keigh), they're already trading in favours. Money simply isn't necessary to them at all. Perhaps souls might be traded occasionally, but to me, that's the closest they come to currency at that level, and that's less of a currency, and more of a bulk resource.

But money is necessary because it represents an abstraction of value that any Commorrite would accept. That's why it would be the basis for exchange.

For example, you have a ton of Splinter Rifle ammo. This is valuable, but not everybody wants it. You have wealth, but there is the possibility that the person you want to trade with doesn't want what you have. So, you sell your ammo for money.... the basic form of value in any economy which can be changed into any sort of goods or services of equivalent value. Your selling it to someone else who may not have anything in particular you want (a trader in bulk goods perhaps) besides the monetary value of the ton of ammo that you want to get rid of.
Then you use that money on the person from whom you want goods or services and bam! suddenly you have what they want and an exchange can occur.

The usefulness of money is that an individual who specialises in a certain discipline, like a doctor, can still have something to offer the local grocery when he wants to buy a packet of cigs. He gets paid for his services and this pay can be changed into anything he requires of equivalent value.

Sure there will be trade and favours and bartering without money, there always is, but there is again absolutely no reason why Commorragh would not use a currency.

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yogi
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 09 2011, 20:45

My take on it goes as this.

Kabals are the major suppliers of slaves in commargh.

The Soul (1 slave) is an obvious form of currency. However you can't go around with 30 dirty humans in your pocket.

A soul token/favor/dollar would be the currency. In my mind these would be issued by the separate Kabals and some would be worth more then others (related to the strength of the Kabal etc)

Something remotely related to this must exist, else how do reavers purchase void raven bombers? How to archons pay alien bounty hunters etc? Obviously other forms of trade exist in parallel.

So a soul token from the Black Heart Kabal (A Secure Kabal) may even be worth more then say a shitty Kabal like the Slashed Eye (the one the Baron trolls) who may be in dire straights and not redeem said tokens, may release too many tokens (think tinpot african nation) etc etc etc

TLDR Just think of modern currency issued by nation sized mafia houses.

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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 09 2011, 21:19

I think the archons would have a great deal of money, but not value it much. So any trade at the high level would be favors or assets, but they would use currency when dealing with low ranks, like warriors, weapon dealers, architects. Anyone with rank would probably be offended if offered cash for payment. even if redeemable for slaves/souls they would probably expect show of hauling in raiders full of them rather then easily carried currency. They definitely would not accept if each kabel backed its own, instead of Vect backing a standard. Reavers, scourges, ect. would probably prefer currency so they could carry and guard it easier. A soul/slave standard currency would have minimum to denomination size, can't place much value on 1/2 a slave. The lowest ranks, below warrior maybe, would have to barter items as a single soul/slave would be to large for there use. Currency use mainly by upper middle class equivalent?
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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 10 2011, 05:03

That's pretty much what I was trying to get across. A currency must exist, because a city like Commorragh cannot survive without it, except that said currency would only really be used by the lower classes. Archons/Succubi would trade, and while they would give some money to those below them, their primary "payment" is in protection. Bartering can only exist on a smaller scale hunter-gatherer (where each and every member is capable of producing far more than they can use), or in more nomadic societies, but I cannot see the Dark Eldar bartering with every possession they have.
Basically, I see Commorragh as working very much like a feudal society, mixed with elements of a crime syndicate. Archons will be the richest, but they have very little use for the money they own. Similarly, they won't buy raiders/weapons/etc off those below them, but rather have a system crossed between vassals/lords and protection rackets, where they'll "own" businesses and factors or whatever, and in exchange for they get provided services and potential recruits, in turn providing protection under the banner of the Kabal, as well as resources from the raids and access to whatever Cults the Kabal has ties with.

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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 10 2011, 05:09

I support the idea of several currencies based off the power of the Kabal(s) backing it/them. Remember, Commorragh is the size of a solar system at the smallest, there's no reason to think that there wouldn't be multiple currencies.

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Hydra
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 10 2011, 09:35

May i might make a suggestion?

Why not mail phil kelly or jes goodwin? If one of the admins would do that and formulate the email well, they even would jump to it. I know that both of them are browsing warpshadow.com and while they were doing research for what people like about DE and the like they have been roaming the boards quite alot. So i guess Phil would be more than happy to see a DE-Only board!

And that way, you could do a summartion of the about thesis and ask him, what he would imagine.
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 12 2011, 20:08

Anyone know Phil Kelly or Jes Goodwin's email addresses?

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Fleshmoulder_Greiil
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 13 2011, 00:49

I think that rather than the 'Commorite Dollar' system, they would have something similar to tickets you win at the fair or at a game place. You earn these tickets to be redeemed for prizes, but are not worth much more.

Warrior Bob kills 20 mon-keigh for his master, and gets 5 archon tickets. He later takes these archon tickets to the kabal armory to redeem them for cooler weapons, ect.

Haemonculus Fred makes a showy display or gives the Archon a nice new arm. He gets 20 archon tickets, takes them to the slave pens, and trades them in for a selection of slaves, ect.

Perhaps something like that. You have Bob walking away with a new Blaster, he gets mugged and the blaster returns to the armory for sale to someone else, perhaps the next guy will hang onto it longer.
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 13 2011, 05:59

Redeemable tickets are just a small scale currency. Paper money was redeemable for a good from the issuing state until fairly recently. For example the U.S. dollar could be turned in for gold until the Nixon administration (there had been an ever increasing number of hoops to jump through for decades though), and the pound could be traded for a pound of silver at one time. So the currency of one Kabal would not be accepted in another's territory, unless maybe they had close ties to each other, but could be converted to something that could be traded (souls/slaves/liquid pain).

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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 15 2011, 21:38

Living in europe i think the euro would be much more suitable to an evil race than the dollar.
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 30 2011, 06:17

I was just pointing out real life example, the euro is new enough it was never exchangeable to my knowledge for anything. Why do you say the euro is suitable for evil race tmonster? The news in U.S. doesn't cover global news very well, so it may be obvious to people in Europe, but I don't see the connection.
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Lurking Evil
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 28 2011, 16:20

Here's just a thought I had while reading through this thread.

What is one of the most base, driving needs of any and EVERY Dark Eldar? The answer is pain/souls whatever that keeps them youthful and keeps She Who Thirsts from devouring them, essentially granting them immortality. What about a generally accepted coin backed not by the Kabals but by the Haemonculi covens. One coin (Pain token?) equals one slave. If a Kabal doesn't have the tokens to pay its warriors then the warriors are obviously not going to be very happy feeling their souls drain. The Haemys are a very cool, neutral third party often described as the only thing keeping the society going. Without pain and souls to keep the DE young and not soul-smoothies for she who thirsts the whole thing would fall apart.

The Haemys need slaves for pretty much everything they do and can't be bothered to go out and always collect them so that's what the Kabals are for with real space raids. And the tokens work as a nice, redeemable thing (Which is pretty much the essence of currency. I'll give you this chunk of something that represents something actually valuable) that lets the warrior all the way up to the Archon acquire what is essentially bread and butter for them. Even Kabals who pretty much own personal covens of their own still need to bring slaves to said covens and still need to pay their warriors in pain. Like someone earlier said, you can't really keep slaves in your pocket.

And if anyone else recalls in the first book of the Malus Darkblade series he starts getting into deep crap when all the slaves he captured are killed off in an ambush. Here we see a hard currency (Which are now stuck in my head as pain tokens) acting as almost a safety thing. If Kabal X wants to mess up Kabal Y all they have to do is release a plague or two to destroy the Kabals wealth! Which I'm sure happens anyway, but tokens would lessen this. But what if the tokens are stolen? Well, the Haemys don't really care what happens to the token after it is issued so long as they have their slave already do they?

Of course anything can be counterfeited, but I imagine trying to con a Haemy to be a veeeeery bad idea. Each coven would probably have their stuff minted or easily identifiable which opens up the interplay of "Your money's no good here!" and whatnot. I see DE society being feudal and a lot of the "I'll pay you with my services for your protection." being a major thing for trade, but I see this being the generally accepted hard currency in Commorragh. Who occupies the highest spires? The ones with the most slaves, because the ones with the most slaves have the most influence, most warriors, biggest region of control etc. The Archons need to witness great carnage and endless pain to keep their souls from slipping and maintain their immortality. So, logically, the thing they see of being actually valuable have to be a means to maintain that life.

Got carried away their again heh heh. Don't judge me for my love of DE fluffy(spikey!) goodness. Just thought to add my two pain tokens into this particular grisly trophy.

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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 28 2011, 21:30

Nice post, I say the Darkblade refference is most accurate.

Just one thing dosnt seems right, imo DE warriors dosnt get "paid" for fighting, being on the raid is actualy a prize for its own....no better place to feed than a battlefield.

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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 28 2011, 22:33

@GrenAcid wrote:
Nice post, I say the Darkblade refference is most accurate.

Just one thing dosnt seems right, imo DE warriors dosnt get "paid" for fighting, being on the raid is actualy a prize for its own....no better place to feed than a battlefield.

Why thank you! It was just itching in my skull.

I agree with you that getting to be in on the realspace raid has its own rewards but only the best get to go on said raids most of the time and DE being egotistical greedy pointy ears would want at least a little direct compensation so they can come back to the city, maybe spend a day down at a coven soaking up that torture. Or gambling! What do idle soldiers do? They make bets and wagers. Factor that into the wych and reaver arenas which are already cesspits of sin and debauchery why not be able to gamble a few souls on which reaver is going to die first or which hekatrix will wrack up the most kills?

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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 29 2011, 15:53

I see no problem with a Kabal paying its warriors. The best analog we have to a Kabal is the Mob. Organised structure with political clout. Im sure they pay their warriors in several ways (hard earned cash would be one thing, to use in the Markets, but also souls, status, weapons. etc...) It only makes sense, keep your warriors happy, and you still have an army.

On a side note, remember that Mandrakes, Scourges, and Helions are paid outright for their services, so some type of currency/goods has to be traded. Unless they all are like mandrakes and its something stupid like "a true name"

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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 27 2011, 03:44

Well met!

The thread's a little stale, but I'm new to the City, so mod me if you must...

My mental interpretation of the City's economy is that of medieval Venice or Florence. Incredible wealth, sometimes traded, sometimes taken, house currency in play, barter, script for those who accept it (after all, the Codex entry for scourges suggest there is a kind of enforced trust when dealing with them), and raw goods.

Consider that the 'Florin', which later became the ducat was instituted to deal with just this kind of question, in this kind of environment. It had a specific weight of gold. Gold, as we know, is not particularly useful except as jewelery, but being durable it keeps whatever value assigned to it. Souls, are consumable, but soul stones are not. At least, no more than gold.

So, would there be a 'standard soul' measure? One soul of the Kin is worth, what, 20 mon-keigh souls? I propose a class of artifacts related to soul stones that represent souls in standard measure.

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PostSubject: Re: The Economy of Commorragh   The Economy of Commorragh - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 03 2012, 14:28

While this is a bit of threadomancy, I think it's worth it. We've finally been given an "example of commerce in Commoragh" in the Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2nd ed. In it, it has a merchant, or at least craftsman, attempting to sell "a conveyance suitable for your esteemed glory", and they do indeed make use of a barter system, with the merchant asking for "a mere demijohn of Mistress Strake's bottled agony, or perhaps a strife of medusae". No mention of souls is made whatsoever.

We're also told that the design of the Tantalus was bartered for weapons and allegiance after the patron Archon was killed, by his successors, rather than actually sold.

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