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 Wait, so why don't people use Lelith

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MasterofPuppets
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PostSubject: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2012, 20:42

I guess I'm not understanding why people aren't using Lelith as their cult leader. I personally don't play a wychs cult army so I personally don't know the ins and outs of making a perfect army for them.

However, she does have some cool rules for her. Power weapons, nice invulnerable save and the bonus to attacks. What makes her so bad? Points or text wrong playing tactics?
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V'rach
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2012, 21:03

due to her low strenth and the fact that she is unable to get combat drugs mean she does very few wounds so if you do some basic math (sorry if i get this wrong) Lelith vs a 5 man tactical squad- Lelith charges a 5 man tactical squad Lelith gets 11 attacks 7 hit and 3 wound 2 remaining space marines attack back 0.3 hit and none wound. if the space marines charged then lelith would maybe take a wound and wound 1 less time which makes her a bit useless against t4+ opponents which make up the majority of 40k armies.

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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2012, 21:12

@MasterofPuppets wrote:
I guess I'm not understanding why people aren't using Lelith as their cult leader. I personally don't play a wychs cult army so I personally don't know the ins and outs of making a perfect army for them.

However, she does have some cool rules for her. Power weapons, nice invulnerable save and the bonus to attacks. What makes her so bad? Points or text wrong playing tactics?
The problem with Lelith is her base strength 3, lack of combat drugs and point cost. She's the only Wych that doesn't use combat drugs. Until she gains that second pain token, she'll be wounding your basic SM on 5s, canceling out the insane number of attacks she might have. For her point cost, you get a T3 model with a 4+ invulnerable save. You could (almost) field a full Wych squad in a Raider.

So even though she has the potential to do a lot of damage and has some pretty nice rules, she just isn't worth the points.
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MasterofPuppets
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2012, 21:15

Wow, missed she didn't have combat drugs!!!! That makes this thread pointless, I wouldn't take a wyche cult leader without them being high on drugs like the rest of the army.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2012, 21:18

She isnt exactly bad, she just cost too much.

I really like her when i played against my friends BA Sanguinary Guard list, she was practically killing them all single-handedly.
It is overall dislike to combat HQs that brings little to the army i guess, while not being cheap mandatory HQ choice.
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MasterofPuppets
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2012, 21:22

I can't believe that GW wouldn't fix that in the faq, her invulnerable is good in assault, she really needs combat drugs. Failboat, all aboard!!
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2012, 21:30

That and she's a lot of points to bung into one character that doesn't buff any other squads. Thor broke it down very well in this article
HQ combat efficiencies
basically, she's pretty good vs GEQ, but as V'rach said, her strength is her weakness (pun intended and I apologise for it, it's been a long day)

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MasterofPuppets
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2012, 21:32

Isn't everything good vs GEQ?! Laughing
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2012, 21:39

Everything in our codex is, gretchin might struggle, but then I think they're supposed to!

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2012, 21:53

Well she is really good against something like super elite units like Vanguard, Sternguard, Sanguinary Guard, Honor Guard, Command Squads etc...Thing is most of them is reduced to 1 atack against her and hit on 5+ trying to beat 3+ invul. They will crumble to combat resolution.

She is really somewhat niche elite killer, problem is she cant really add anything to killing solid rocks like AT/LC Terminators,Wolf Cavalry, solid combat characters with high T etc...invul is her doom.
And thats for a solid 175 points cost, thats a cost of average wych unit with transport.

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Torpedo Vegas
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2012, 22:01

@MasterofPuppets wrote:
I can't believe that GW wouldn't fix that in the faq, her invulnerable is good in assault, she really needs combat drugs. Failboat, all aboard!!

It's not an error, Lilith is stated to specifically not use combat drugs in her fluff entry. She isn't a good character because she lacks them but it isn't something GW forgot to include, she isn't meant to have drugs.

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2012, 22:26

1 word: overpriced

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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2012, 23:02

That price would be worth it if she came with Reroll to Wound. As it stands, if you want a wych cult leader, just go for a regular succubus with Hydra gauntlets, you'll get more or less the same except for half the price. It's a shame, as her model is fantastic.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2012, 23:43

@Siticus the Ancient wrote:
That price would be worth it if she came with Reroll to Wound. As it stands, if you want a wych cult leader, just go for a regular succubus with Hydra gauntlets, you'll get more or less the same except for half the price. It's a shame, as her model is fantastic.

Of course, there's nothing to stop you putting hydra gauntlets on the lelith model, that would look pretty cool

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2012, 01:14

@Raneth wrote:
1 word: overpriced
Amen. 125? 140 even and I might bite, but 175 kills it for me. Even with the dead sexy model. I might try her in an Apocalypse game someday where nothing really matters except throwing armloads of dice like a maniac Twisted Evil

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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2012, 01:20

She just so ineffective for the points. Anything with an invulnerable save nueters her, anything with S6 or above wipes her out. It's too many points for a single model that can be taken out so easily.
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MasterofPuppets
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2012, 01:22

The list goes on and on, at least she is a cool model.
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2012, 04:08

Most of the DE characters are better replaced with their theme unit as its generally about the same price. That said, Lilith with one other shardnet, or better yet 2-3 will destroy things...

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2012, 06:33

Would she be worth for you if she hit on a 2+ and can snipe powerfists?

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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2012, 07:01

Do remember that if she had that and targeted only the powerfist character, she'd make all attacks on him. 9-10 attacks on one powerfist sarge is a bit excessive.

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eldargal
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2012, 09:02

Put her in with 9 Blood brides with Hydra gauntlets and watch anything die under an avalanche of dice. Her only real problem is that she is up against underpriced SCs that compensate for peoples lack of skill by offering army wide buffs.
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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2012, 10:26

@eldargal wrote:
Put her in with 9 Blood brides with Hydra gauntlets and watch anything die under an avalanche of dice. Her only real problem is that she is up against underpriced SCs that compensate for peoples lack of skill by offering army wide buffs.
As long as 'anything' doesn't have a decent invulnerable save or high toughness. Lelith + Bloodbrides bounce off an equal number of points in THSS termies or anything T5 or above. Plus for the 350+ points you are paying for that even without transport, they die horribly to any guns pointed at them. Picking effective HQs (that might or might not have army wide buffs or other force multipliers) rather than Lelith has nothing to do with lack of skill, just with common sense.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2012, 12:25

Lilith plus BB plus 3 nets vs around 8-9 hammernators should be a good match up actually

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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2012, 12:49

@Massaen wrote:
Lilith plus BB plus 3 nets vs around 8-9 hammernators should be a good match up actually
Yup, with nets instead of hydra gauntlets, and on the charge (which is basically a given) is a much better setup. They remain a huge point sink and a big liability in the enemy shooting phase though.
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eldargal
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PostSubject: Re: Wait, so why don't people use Lelith    Wait, so why don't people use Lelith  I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2012, 13:13

Again, it depends on your personal preferences. Also relying on SCS that offer army wide buffs is a crutch, players become reliant on them and their tactical growth is stunted.

Roll enough dice and those ++ saves will still fail, and wtih a ++ save themselves the yare quite durable.

One thing I do notice peopel not realising is that Lelith is 3++ in CC but 4++ against shooting, unlike Succubi and Wyches. It can make a surprising difference.
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