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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 06 2012, 00:07

I would elaborate, but this ain't the thread for Rav vs Voidraven. Razz

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 01:03

Dark Eldar really don't have a true answer for real rock units like Hamminators, or God forbid, Matt Ward cheesiness involving FnP and 3++. There are units out there which require an inordinate amount of torrenting to put down, nothing the DE brings to the field will really touch them in hand to hand.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 04:25

That would call for a Shooting Death Star!

4 Trueborn with Blasters
5 Trueborn with Shardcarbines
Pistol Dracon/Blaster Archon/Duke Nukem
Raider, FF, NS

If the opponent doesn't deal with this, it's gonna blow up a squad or vehicle per turn. Okay, a squad, maybe- it's not actually guaranteed for 5 Blasters to cause a wreck. Why can't we steal some @#$%&*^ Fusion Guns?

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 07:26

@Captain Mayhem wrote:
one of the deathstars that I am thinking about is this:'

Vect
Drazhar
8 trueborn, six with carbines, two with cannons.
.

You know this is not legal right?

Draz can only join incubi units

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 08:17

IMHO, any DE "deathstar" should start with at least 1pain token, or 2 if it's a combat DS.

My examples for DE DS...

Incubi with all options, haemonculus x1-2 with funny arcane items (maybe Urien), and a full-equipped Archon

Grotesques (4 or 10, depending if in Raider or on foot), plus 2x any combat IC(Urien/Clonefield Archon/Vect/Malys/Drazhar/Lelith/...) If on foot, they could join the Baron too for the +1 to cover saves.

20 warriors, 2 splinter cannons, Sliscus, 1 haemonculus/Baron (FnP from the beginning or +1cover save and make the PT later?) Not the hardiest nor the most dangerous one... but it can claim objectives and kill nearby infantry.

Sliscus, 9 Trueborn with full Shard Carbines and Splinter Cannons in Raider. Nom nom infantry... (maybe shift a trueborn for an Haemonculus)

Sliscus, 9 trueborn: leader with blaster pistol and agoniser, 4 blasters, 2 carbines, 2 cannons, in Raider.
(option: multi-purposeborn: shift 2 carbine trueborn for 2 haemonculi with liquifer, agoniser and/or venom blade... )

The Baron's Hellions Deathstar: we all know... 2-3 pain tokens in the first turn thanks to coven units and characters and then let the Guerrilla Warfare begins.... move through cover, shoot, assault, withdraw, rinse and repeat...



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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 11:44

the first option is aprox 630pts.
second option ive gone with a basic archon - ago, shadow, cdrug, pgl - and malys for a total of 495 pts in a raider w ns and ff. This can take a horrible amount of punishment, so im willing to call it a deathstar - compared to other options we have. No, the 10 grotesque on foot aint a good idea, unless you run a full coven army. But then maxing out the squads is alwayse a priority Smile
third...aw yes, those warriors. 420with sliscus and a haem with liquifire and casket. Mathammer rules, so 12"+ shooting: 11.5 wounds with saves alowed. P.armor: 3 unsaved. aprox 2 wounds on termies. 1"-12" shooting: 20 wounds, 6 unsaved P.armor, 3 on termies.
420 points of shooting termies within 12", only get down 3, and next turn, you are going to be obliterated.


with our low survivability to shooting - no armorsaves vs bolters Razz - i dont recomend giving them armor saves, or if i do, i intend to make at least one roll fail. Wyches in assault min 3 attacks, 1/3 chance to fail a save, usually works.

The trueborn with carabines...the same matter, although more survivability from the 18" range, splinterracks will let more shots hit te target, but i still cant see a guardian squad fall to this attack.
the second i more or less like. But no i wouldnt run it. It has potential, but cant sustain a lot of punishment, unlike the grotesques, so its going to fall pretty fast...unless dice gods at your side and lady average helps more with our saves than your shooting.

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 16:29

...

*ahem*

A "Deathstar" is not torrenting warriors or Trueborn! "Deathstar" refers to units designed to beat face in close combat with power weapons. The ONLY "Deathstar" in the Dark Eldar Codex is Incubistar. That's how a deathstar works; it jumps out in close combat and wipes units off the field with powerweapon attacks. They're designed to steamroll Meqs and anything that isn't a dedicated close combat unit itself, and there's some deathstars that can even do that. (Hamminators don't care about powerweapons)

Shooting at stuff with blasters or a bunch of splinter fire doesn't make you a deathstar. You're torrenting fire now, and when that Marine squad in cover laughs off your blaster shots, don't be surprised if a krak missile brings down your Raider next turn. Those are not deathstars, they're just upgraded shooting units that won't hold up against similar units in opposing lists. (Space Wolves with four missile launchers don't care about your flickerfield save or mass of +5 armored bodies)
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 16:37

@Arrex wrote:
...

*ahem*

A "Deathstar" is not torrenting warriors or Trueborn! "Deathstar" refers to units designed to beat face in close combat with power weapons. The ONLY "Deathstar" in the Dark Eldar Codex is Incubistar. That's how a deathstar works; it jumps out in close combat and wipes units off the field with powerweapon attacks. They're designed to steamroll Meqs and anything that isn't a dedicated close combat unit itself, and there's some deathstars that can even do that. (Hamminators don't care about powerweapons)

Shooting at stuff with blasters or a bunch of splinter fire doesn't make you a deathstar. You're torrenting fire now, and when that Marine squad in cover laughs off your blaster shots, don't be surprised if a krak missile brings down your Raider next turn. Those are not deathstars, they're just upgraded shooting units that won't hold up against similar units in opposing lists. (Space Wolves with four missile launchers don't care about your flickerfield save or mass of +5 armored bodies)

I wasn't aware that there was an official definition of a deathstar. Is it in the 40k rulebook? No, didn't think so.

What you seem to be arguing about is whether these ideas fit your definition.

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 16:48

Spend some time on 3++, and less on BOLS.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 16:53

@Arrex wrote:
Spend some time on 3++, and less on BOLS.

You sound more like you spend time on YTTH as you and Stelek both seem to think that their opinion is the only one that is relevant and reflects the entire world.

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 17:02

Calling every unit with some upgrades a "deathstar" renders the concept useless by diluting into irrelevance. Is an upgraded Ravener Brood a deathstar? It has better stats, does more damage, and takes more to kill than a lot of the "deathstars" I've seen listed here. (Hint, it's not, the correct answer is a Swarmlord with Tyrant Guards) What about an upgraded Assault Squad lead by a jump Chaplain? Is that is a deathstar, or is it Assault Terminators jumping out of a Land Raider?

Pretty obvious what constitutes a real deathstar here....
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 18:18

There you go again with your 'correct answers'. Hint: Absolutist statements on subjective topics are ridiculous.


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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 21:07

For all those still interested in how to build a Deathstar:

DE Deathstars - Page 4 Death_star_eye

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 21:15

@Raneth wrote:
For all those still interested in how to build a Deathstar:

DE Deathstars - Page 4 Death_star_eye

You forgot to designate the coordinates of TK-421, although right now, he's not at his post...

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 21:49

I'd suggest a slight design modification. Build a bloody wall in front of the small thermal exhaust port!

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 07 2012, 22:24

Answering to Arrex!!

IMHO <In my HUMBLE OPNINION> You noticed those capital letters What a Face ? They mean: that's just what I think... not that it must be written in stone or something.

And I said a dark eldar "deathstar" (quotation marks maybe? Very Happy )

I know we don't have Dark Eldar Terminators, and that a shooting squad will never touch the uberness of Draigo and his SupaBros... BUT defining a Deathstar as "designed to beat face in close combat with power weapons"... is far even from the usual definition.

Take Farseer Councils on Jetbikes for example... were are the power weapons????

Nobs in bikes... they get different weapons for wound allocation shenanigans...


So maybe we should use different words for what we differently understand.... for me, a true deathstar (without quotation marks) is a unit that carries a heavy duty in your army because you have invested a lot of points in making it as powerfull as it can be (and choosed wisely its options) and in return you get...

1)A lot of offensive power (so your enemy must kill it or ran away from it before it does its work)

and/or

2) A lot of Defensive power (through saves and/or numbers)


If your Deathstar has good DP but not OP, then probably is a tarpit unit for enemy combat units (or deathstars) or has something else (like Eldar warlocks, which can tarpit and also drop tanks easily).

The usual deathstar is something you run from, but that also tends to cost so many points that the rest of the army looks like a group of sattelites traveling with it.

In the case of DE, we have good offensive power in most units, and a not-that-bad defensive power if you take into account that:

Grotesques: T5, 3W FnP, up to 10 models
Incubi: 3+, (FnP)
Baron's hellion deathstar: 3+cover saves, FnP, up to 20 models
Beasts: lots of wounds, and 4++ saves, a lot of models also

Even if you think that wyches should be in combat most of the time with 4++ and FnP, and that shooting squads in cover with numbers and FnP is also a pain in the ass to many people.

But yeah, we're weak with a lots of T3 and 5+/6+ saves in this Space Marine 40k universe, so that's why we're not going in transports or by webway night bus. Also, a 2+ armor is not that sexy, and shields are for cowards (Archon says: but shadow shields are cool Sad ) Sh Like a Star @ heaven t., want a DE deathstar? go Apocalypse and make a unit of Archons with 2++ and Agonisers and blasters and drugs and, and...!!! But I digress...

Who cares if our combat "deathstars" don't get grenades (unless with an Archon), or invulnerable saves, or hammers... The best thing about Dark Eldar is that the more powerful our enemies are, the more we laugh at them. Monstruous Creatures? Poison weapons. Land raiders? Lance weapons. Paladins? Lance weapons. Invulnerable saves? Eat more poison. Uber Combat Units? Talk to my wyches. High Toughness and good save and/or FnP? A-go-go-nicer!!

We have more tools... like shattershards, implosion missiles, etc... but you got my idea for shure.

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CaptainBalroga
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 08 2012, 01:33

@Eldur wrote:
The best thing about Dark Eldar is that the more powerful our enemies are, the more we laugh at them.

It's unfortunate that lots of competitive armies copy our style and just take small insignificant units...with three meltas each in a metal lascannon box. Our paper planes have more swag, at least.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 08 2012, 01:59

in a metal box, usually with almost no defenses, or relatively few. Pops smoke, target something else. Smoke expires? pop the transport, so the enemy cant close on you fast...than tarpit or shoot off the table.
Popping transports? We have a variety of weapons to do it: Voidlance(!!!), Darklance, Heatlance, Blaster, Blast pistol, Haywire grenades, haywire blaster, grots, 36" ram from a supersonic vehicle. or 24" with shock prow.
Infantry? Wyches or warriors or both, incubi or covens or trueborn. Awesome missiles, great arcane wargear - crucible of maledict, casket of flensing, liquifire, scisorhand, shattershard, dark gate.
Talos and Cronos engines, poisone weapons, drugs, grenades...we dont need a death star...the WHOLE FREAKIN ARMY IS ONE IF USED PROPERLY! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 08 2012, 03:11

Popping transports is far and away not as easy as you make out...

I run 23 blaster/lance shots at 1850 and its not enough in some cases...

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 08 2012, 04:44

voidraven bomber, get side armor, you can with two, so you glance on 1, pen on 2+ Razz two lances, one hits, kaboom. Scourges: haywire blaster - shaken, stun, immo, wreck, boom: all good, 5 out of 6, 3 out of 4 on glance.
Heatlance: btch please, average roll 7 on 6=13, you reduce av to 12? ow so on average its a pen? sweet ap1.
10 haywire grenades...i dig.
I use 2 voidraven bombers and grenades, and they havent failed me once.

on the haywire: 10 grenades, vehicle moved, need 4s to hit, 2s to glance, 6s to pen. Out of 10 grenades, 4 glance and 1 pen.

I run 4 lances(VR bomber) in a 1500 and 6-7 in 2k and its enough.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 08 2012, 05:29

You are the only person I have ever seen say that... :/

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 08 2012, 06:27

I agree... Though it depends ob the meta and his opponents. Given it takes around 14 lance shots on average to wreck 1 AV 12 vehicle, you can't be facing IG, BA, SW or GK in any of the common competitive builds... Because that few AT shots is asking to loose where I play...

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 08 2012, 08:33

Though the wreck isn't always what you need. But, yeah, he's probably playing in a less mech heavy enviroment regardless as it does usually take around 3+ lances to start getting a result that allows you to move onto the next target functionally.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 08 2012, 13:15

I use 3x9 wych squads with haywire grenades... If the enemy has a lot of vehicles, my lances only have to shut their weapons down... then they better leave the transport before I surround it with my raiders/venoms while the wyches use their grenades.
I call it "the dark eldar way for transport r Like a Star @ heaven ping" I like to use sexual names for my DE tactics Twisted Evil

I like what Enfrernux said... Deathstar unit? B Like a Star @ heaven tch please. Eat my deathstar army.

In fact, while we're going in raiders or webways we can always concentrate our whole army presence in a unique point of the battlefield. Mmmm, I'll think in the tactical expressions for this idea.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 4 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 08 2012, 13:56

I usually play half-mech orks, half-mech and full-mech ig, footdar, half and full mech-dar, jet dar, wolfriders, broadsidewing tau, assault angels, newcron, black tanklars.
Against the formers, the lances are enough with haywire to the rest, missiles are exceptionally good vs anything.

the tricky thing about VRB's is that once you shoot out the missiles, it isnt considered that big a threat, so its left alone, until it popps a transport. but by then, the other one will pop something to, possibly a landraider.
Wave serpents? Haywire blasters and grenades. You wil glance it to hell! And one heatlance: the shield of the serpent only protects from the front and the side...shooting rear armor with melta? Nomnomnom...

Ive tried blasterspam army, didnt work, even a broadside wing tau beat me. After ive gone to melee theme, i keep winning. Only had one defeat, and that was from Black Tankdar and blessed armor: no 2d6 melta, av cant be lowered...on a LR that is a pain...so haywire Smile

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