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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu May 31 2012, 15:58

Sadly, the archon in door 3 is the best way for you:

Archon +
Agoniser, Shadowfield, Combat Drugs, PGL

also:

5 Incubi are not enough to make onslaught worth it, while the bloodstone is heavily overpriced, bad and working against your tactic.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu May 31 2012, 16:29

I dont like the idea of a "well this worked so far lets use this" Archon. The clonefield is basically good vs most of the enemies i want to kill, without fearing of loseing my whole squad, pending on Lady Average.
PGL is to high a price for me to take it seriously, and the shadowfield will backfire - how meny games have you played without rolling a lot of ones? And once it does, a lot of points are wasted,where as a clonefield only backfires, when the archon dies - and is cheeper to.
10 wytches and 5 incubi with an arcon wont kill you say? 2*10 man tac squad vs my composition:charged one tac, cc began, my incu rolled 1 on fleet, so i was 2 inches away to begin cc. Next round,the wytches endured - 2 shardnets, the hekatrix and a normal lady stayed with 16 marines beating them. Then the incu arrived and virtuallycut through the enemy's squads, with ease. Maybelle bloodstones are a bit over priced, but can have a good effects - the problem is i never got to try it out, and that is why it being an experiment posted it. But if you count that out i dont see why i would need door no.3

Edit: on the thought: My composition vs the Eldar heavy CC unite,scorpions. If a squad of 10 scorpion charges you, that will mean 35+ attacks. Ok, you all have armorsaves, but it is still 35+ attacks. Lets say half hit 17, need 3s to wound 10 wounds for the saveing. If you are with 9 bloodbrides and a shadowfield, you have 1/6 to backfire - low, i know, but planes crashed for 0.1mm fails in maintenance - where as with a clone field, you wont have to worry at all, 'cause the minimum you will roll is 1. Thats a laugh, i get 10 wounds from one attack and dont have to worry about takeing it? for 10pt cheaper?! I'll take it.

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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu May 31 2012, 16:35

I definately agree with SleepyPillow on the matter of Archons.

I have come up with something I consider to be an effective Deathstar, although I would only consider it in a very large game.

Archon - Shadowfield, Combat Drugs, Huskblade, PGL.
Haemonculous ancient - Liquifier Gun, Scissor Hand.
8 Incubi including 1 Klaivex - Onslaught.
Raider - FF, NS.

P.S. I havenever been only been killed once because of my Shadowfield malfunctioning, and eve then I just had the Archon their to absorb a million hits from lightning claws while the Incubi got to work.
His sacrifice was needed.
Otherwise, when being sensible and responsible, my Shadowfield has been really reliable.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu May 31 2012, 17:01

@Enfernux

first off CWE have a deathstar... its called the Seer Council (or Super Seer Council w/ Yiel and Eldrad)

Secondly I wont get on the topic of Clonefield vs Shadowfield (that is for another Thread) but the idea of a deathstar is one unit that can produce such damage to deem it a threat and draw fire upon itself, surviving in the process. An example of a deathstar is a Seer Council, Nob Bikerz, or Dragiowing.

Wyches and Bloodbrides fail at this with their T3 and 6+ armorsave ouside of combat. Incubi, having 3+ Sv fair better, but their price per damage output is hard to balance. Either they will be too good and never see combat as their AV 10 open topped transport gets blown out from underneath them, or they are blow right through the combat, and just get shot to death in the next turn.

Also why is the PGL a high price for what it does? Incubi going at the same speed as TH = dead Incubi. Im sorry but 20 pts is well worth the price of not having my opponent dictate where and when my Incubi can charge and be effective. Sure you could get a wych squad in the battle first, then charge in the Incubi, but then again you are letting the opponent dictate when your Incubi can charge and do what they do best, kill MEQ in close combat.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu May 31 2012, 17:17

@ Shadows Revenge
a wise statement on the PGL, worth considering.
On the transport and dictating the where and when: Thats why we have Aether sails, to not get blasted first turn to arrive - yes, i do hold all in reserve and like to go second - and since our awsome speed, i dont need my enemy to dictate. If he stais his termies in cover, i move away, leting them rot and go for munchies on the other side of the board. Vs munchies, shadowfield is overkill, imho Very Happy
If he doesnt stay them termies in cover, well...tough luck, we'll see what we can hack.
So 20 pf for a may or may not use my speed to my advantaged can be situationall. Also, i dont think i woudl charge termies unless there area no otherwise enemies on the board. In my list i usually aply a lot of viod lances, implosion and shatterfields to take care of 60% of the battlefield, disintegrators against termies, or basically anthing with a storm shield.

I know what a deathstar unite is, but frankly,DE arent a Deathstar race.

A good Deathstar isnt killed by one sort of attack. I see a lot of ppl posting Grotesques and Wracks. Ever heard of Implosion missiles? Smile A good DS counters that - SS Termies 3+ invul - but what does a Grotesque do? No armor, no FNP...50% dead from one shot. Ow, wait...i have 4.

The DE DS as i see it depends on the list a person is playing and the synergy it provides with different squads working together. In my case, sacrificeing half of the wytches for my incu to mop op almost anything else.

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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu May 31 2012, 17:21

@Enfernux wrote:
I dont like the idea of a "well this worked so far lets use this" Archon.
Why do you even ask for input, if you want to try new stuff out?

@Enfernux wrote:
9The clonefield is basically good vs ...
No it's not. You take the clonefield in a bloodbride squad, since they can defend you well enough, otherwise you take the shadowfield and pray to the dice-gods.

@Enfernux wrote:
PGL is to high a price for me to take it seriously
Says the same guy that takes the bloodstone? 1 S4 DS3 shot for 15 points?! In what Situation would you need a single S4 DS3 shot?

PGL on the other hand is what you need , otherwise your opponent will abuse your lack of grenades.

@Enfernux wrote:
10 wytches and 5 incubi with an arcon wont kill you say?...
Quote the sentence where I said that and I tell you that you misinterpreted it.

Funnily I agree on the fact that DE don't have a Deathstar per se. You can use high cost unit's like 15 + Hellion Bloobs with Baron, 9 Incubi + PGL Archon , 9 Bloodbrides + Shadowtrap&Huskblade Archon or even the "Malys Deathstar", but all of them depend on stuff that works hand in hand with them.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu May 31 2012, 17:43

The blood stone is stil 5 pt cheaper Smile
ok, back to serious: i usually take advantage of my high speed and
mobility, mostly making my enemy choos: do i stay in cover and let the
rest of my army die, or do i take my chances against those wytches and
probably be assaulted further on? They usually take the later.
DE need overkill pointwise in order to be effective. The bloodstones are
just an extra, if i can position right and "flame" them down before i
charge in. I, before the last few months didnt include cc in my lists,
to compared to that killing half a local tourney with my mobility is
quite and advancement - before that i mostly overkillshot everything.

@SleepyPillow wrote:
Why do you even ask for input, if you want to try new stuff out?
@SleepyPillow wrote:

Quote the sentence where I said that and I tell you that you misinterpreted it.
so quote the sentence i asked for an imput Very Happy nah, just bein a hard--- Smile

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 02 2012, 15:55

I don't care if a unit qualifies as a deathstar or not. As long as it is effective on the table you can call it a care bear star as far as i'm concerned.

I'd like to say thanks to all for this excellent thread! After reading it a few weeks back i decided i wanted to try...

Archon - Ago, shadow, drugs, PGL
Heam - Liquifier
4 Grotesques - Aberration, liquifier
Raider - FF, enhanced sails

It was love at first game!

I can fearlessly turbo these guys 24 + 2d6" up a flank (I almost always hit the flanks and roll up the line) and land next to cover, blocking LOS to my following skimmer horde. My opponent craps his pants and shoots most/all of his guns at it. The raider either explodes or is wrecked next to terrain so this unit can always get cover and is close enough to be in combat next turn.

They survive the torrent and then multicharge until they die. They can tie up my opponent's army so effectively that my following skimmer horde has the time it needs to shoot/assault the hell out him.

Ive run them 5 times now and found this tactic is the absolute balls against most shooting armies. You do have to take care to avoid enemy deathstars in armies that include them (which are few).
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 02 2012, 16:09

@Painjunky wrote:

Archon - Ago, shadow, drugs, PGL
Heam - Liquifier
4 Grotesques - Aberration, liquifier
Raider - FF, enhanced sails

It was love at first game!

Do they really need that Haem?

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 02 2012, 16:33

@Raneth wrote:
@Painjunky wrote:

Archon - Ago, shadow, drugs, PGL
Heam - Liquifier
4 Grotesques - Aberration, liquifier
Raider - FF, enhanced sails

It was love at first game!

Do they really need that Haem?

Probably not... tho the extra wound allocation, liquifier and +1 strength and initiative on the charge is lovely. Come to think about it the raider could get away without having the FF too.

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CaptainBalroga
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 02 2012, 18:05

Keep the Flickerfield- if you're baiting your opponent into focusing on you, that's where the Flickerfield has the most effect! That's like giving your entire army a 5++ save until the Distraction Raider goes down: surely that's worth 10 points.

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Captain Mayhem
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 03 2012, 23:42

one of the deathstars that I am thinking about is this:'

Vect
Drazhar
8 trueborn, six with carbines, two with cannons.

OR

Vect
Malys, 7 incubi.

Anything that survives the ranged onslaught from the first one will be too weak to put up much of a fight, and they'd better have a massive blob for the second one.. beacuse when Malys/Drazhar + vect gets a hold of them.. goodnight.

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 04 2012, 03:23

I've had success in larger games using 9 Incubi with a Klaivex + Onslaught and accompanied by a Shattershard toting base model Haemonculus. (Zipping around in a good ol' Flickerfield Raider) This isn't a terribly expensive unit points wise, people don't expect it, and you'll normally nab an extra pain token immediately off the first assault. It works well on terrain dense tables where you can isolate an enemy transport and use a Darklight can opener to get the troops out, then quietly bushwhack the former passengers and consolidate somewhere that won't leave dozens of vengeful guns trained on them.

Remember though, these aren't assault Terminators in a Landraider, nor should they EVER think of duking it out with a true deathstar.. Proper care and feeding of the Incubi requires armored targets without 3++ invulnerable saves, like big squads of marines or shootynators. Obviously you aren't gonna run them in anything smaller than a 1500 point game either, better off with Wyches or smaller Incubus squads at 1K engagements.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 04 2012, 10:14

@Captain Mayhem wrote:
one of the deathstars that I am thinking about is this:'

Vect
Drazhar
8 trueborn, six with carbines, two with cannons.

trueborn are only good for haveing blasters in a venom and assisting in vehicle popping. To this i would say a big Nay! So big it would rise out from the Mariana Fault and still could be seen from Mount Everest. We are specialist, dont combine shooty with assault in a unite - well except for the haem liquifires, but they help the assaulting unites with a better precentage, than any splinter weapon. The second is a quite good DS, but i would replace Malys with a haem for the paintoken.
But as i said: DEldar dont have Death Star unites, we need unite cowork to get results. We need to focus on targets that are voulnerable, and the rest to weaken the others, prepareing for our massacre unites to assault.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 04 2012, 10:44

@CaptainBalroga wrote:
Keep the Flickerfield- if you're baiting your opponent into focusing on you, that's where the Flickerfield has the most effect! That's like giving your entire army a 5++ save until the Distraction Raider goes down: surely that's worth 10 points.

You don't use FF when you turbo.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 04 2012, 10:51

Painjunky, there are weapons that ignore CS, and for flatouting you get cover saves. If ignored by an s10 weapon, you are toast, if you have a 5++, maybe not Smile

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 04 2012, 11:16

@Enfernux wrote:
Painjunky, there are weapons that ignore CS, and for flatouting you get cover saves. If ignored by an s10 weapon, you are toast, if you have a 5++, maybe not Smile

I don't see many s10 weapons that ignore cover.

I do see hydras that ignore cover, and FF has not saved me from them once. I suppose it could happen tho.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 04 2012, 11:20

all ordnance barage weapons ignore cover. Like the missiles you could take for witchhunters, sm and gk. And 10 pts for a survivability countermeasure can be helpful.

Edit: ordnance barrage: IG master of ordnance Razz

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Captain Mayhem
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 05 2012, 02:04

@Enfernux wrote:
trueborn are only good for haveing blasters in a venom and assisting in vehicle popping. To this i would say a big Nay! So big it would rise out from the Mariana Fault and still could be seen from Mount Everest. We are specialist, dont combine shooty with assault in a unite - well except for the haem liquifires, but they help the assaulting unites with a better precentage, than any splinter weapon. The second is a quite good DS, but i would replace Malys with a haem for the paintoken.
But as i said: DEldar dont have Death Star unites, we need unite cowork to get results. We need to focus on targets that are voulnerable, and the rest to weaken the others, prepareing for our massacre unites to assault.

ummm...

I've had my drazhar/trueborn combo cut through everything. carnifexes, daemon princes, wads of termies, packs of necrons, LOADS of IG, and my all-time favourite, hive tyrants and mawlocs. By the time the other guy realizes what's happening, their army just lost a third of their forces.

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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 05 2012, 09:48

That doesn't make your "squad" better math-wise. You're paying more points for 1 Trueborn than for 1 Hagashin, but the girl does better in combat.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 05 2012, 11:11

516 pf vs ~250 5 TH/SS termies.
Lets say you miraculously get to 6" to shoot. 2*4+6*3 shots from splinter weapons. 26 shots with bs4wounding on 4+. 8 wounds. Termies have 2+ armor save. In math thats 1 wound, max 2. So 146 Pts of shooting took down 1-2 termies. If he were to charge, you would be so annihilated, that you couldnt even bring back the remains of those trueborn, for a simple reason: nothing will remain of them, except for the blood and a little trace of skin on the Thunder Hammers.
But it is still your turn. You charge in with Vect - bleh - and Drazhar. You hit first so vect has 6, drazhar has 5 attacks. Vect3+ to hit 5.3 hits, 3+ to wound, 3.5 wounds, termies 3+ stormshield to a total of 1 wound, Drazhar 3+ to hit 3.33 hits, 3+ to wound, 2 wounds, termies 3++ again, 0.74 unsaved.
And the trueborn. 8 have 3 attacks on the charge each, that is 24 attacks. hiting on 4+, wounding on 5+, termies 2+ armor save: 0.66 wounds.
lets go with real numbers, counting minimum: 1 from shooting 1 from vect, 0 from drazhar, 1 from the trueborn. 3.
Maximum: 2 from shooting 1 from vect 1 from drazhar and 1 from the trueborn. 5.

you spent 576 points to kill an aprox 250 squad of termies. Way overkill. And on the minimum chart, you will suffer a wound, unless you absorb it with Vect. But if you fail your shadowfield, he will be ID.
Where as 4 implosion missiles average 1 full 2 half and 1 miss, 10 wyches with 2 shardnets, heka with aggoniser, 5 incubi with an archon with aggoniser: 120 for the missiles, 150 for the wyches, 110 for the incubi, and 125 for the archon are 505.Only 5 more then the double of the termies, different unites, one of them is scoring and only one HQ.
10 hits with implo, termies have 1 wound: 8-9 termies have to roll saves. ap2, invul negates 3++: 2.5, so 2-3. Now the wyches and the incubi. Lets say you rolled +1 attacks, not +1 str. So the archon has init 7, hitting 5 base, +1 charge, +1 2 ccw. Need 3s to hit 4s to wound: 2.3, termies 3++: 0.7 0-1 wyches need 4s to hit, 5s to wound except the heka, 4s to wound.
Hekatrix 3 base +1 charge, +1 2 ccw 5. 2.3 wounds, termies 3++: 0.7 0-1
Wyches 2base, 2 extra 9*4: 8, 2+ armor: 1.33 thats 1-2.
AND NOW, the Uncubi: 2 attacks each +1 for charge: 5*3: 6.7 wounds, termies 3++: 2.2 2-3.
On the minimum 6, max 10 unsaved wounds. That'd be enough to criple a 10 marine terminator squad. so on average you kill 8 termies for 71 less points. Hurra!

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 05 2012, 21:56

I, for one, reckon that Shardcarbine Trueborn are among the best AI available for DE. 18" means they can be judicious about moving into Assault range, while the assault weapon quality coupled with increased Attacks/Initiative enables them to relaibly finish off dimished enemy squads regardless of their ASv. I wish I had room for them, but unfortunately AT is a bigger problem for DE.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 05 2012, 22:08

AT a problem? Duno, maybe i get lady average on my side, but usually the two voidravens and the wyches are enough

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 05 2012, 23:05

@Enfernux wrote:
two voidravens

Shocked

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 05 2012, 23:07

wut? Very Happy

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