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Enfernux
Wych
Enfernux

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 10 2012, 21:42

1 out of 4 more likely. There are a lot of marine players, and you can
call them wolfriders, terminators, paladins, they are almost the same.
The disintegrator is not a deathstar breaking weapon, it is a...how
should i put it...very hard to kill but not deathstar unite killer. Like
broadsides for tau. t4, w2, sv2+. Against that, disint is better, for 3
xv88 vs 3 dl...not that much of a succes, although what wounds is ID.
Disints take more time to crack xv88s, but has more shots.

Still off topic.
1850? well 9 venoms with cannons with 5 warriors w blasters+blasterborn+ravagers w ff are 1419, 27 darklight, 9 venoms and 350+ to spare...otherwise i cant see you fit in the 27 darklight, unless with raiders.
to count for that. 8 venoms 5 warrior 3 blasterborn 1 raider 1 vect and the incubi of 5: 1704 pts. But then no counterassault to prtect your incubi.

That does sound something i would have to try out. hmmm...maybe. Ok, that does sound like something to take down a termi squad of 5 and still be able to wreck some vehicles, my apologies.

Although i wouldnt Vect it, well, stiles differ, i still am not convinced about the named HQs...except for Drazhar ofc Smile

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 11 2012, 04:22

@Ruke wrote:




Being completely honest, we don't have anything that equals termies, really. The closest we WOULD have would be Incubi, and those are a load of fail (or not, I just don't like them)...


Amen. Incubi give you a good beatstick that might smack unsuspecting Shootynators, but against something serious like Hamminators with various Chapter abilities, you're screwed. Even Wyches won't hold out very long against those stats. Incubi are cheaper, IMO, they're fairly points effective all things considered, but they aren't Terminators. TH/SS Terminators are the gold standard upon which all Death Stars are judged.
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Ruke
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 11 2012, 07:41

@Enfernux wrote:
1 out of 4 more likely.

IDK about your local meta, but the people I play with tend to stay away from termies. They are just a huge point sink, so I don't see them very often. I find some paladins on occasion, and obliterators, but no one here runs deathwing, or BT and those are the only armies with termies that are really worth it.

I try and stay away from people who use GK, cause ICK

Back to the topic at hand though...

I've said it before, and I'm saying it again. Our best deathstar is Vect with 8 BB's (3 razorflails) and a syren (venom blade).

Give them haywires, they're going to take down a vehicle. Toss them up against normal marines, and your going to win via combat resolution. IDK how they would fare against termies, but I would assume pretty well. The problem I have with them is that I normally punch through the squad I attack, and then they are open to counterfire, but, I have yet to run them and they don't earn back their points.

It's probably my favorite unit in the game ATM.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 11 2012, 10:48

For the record, Incubi point for point will beat THSS Termies on the charge...

5 THSS Termies - 200 points
9 Incubi - 198 points

9 incubi charge, 27 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds, 3 unsaved wounds.
2 Termies fight back, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds
Incubi win by 1

7 Incubi fight, 14 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1 - maybe 2 - unsaved wounds.
Maybe 1 termie fights back - 2 attacks, 1 hit, 1 wound
Either Incubi win in the SM player turn or the combat is a tie which the incubi win in the next round.

Incubi should be charging termies thanks to fleet and fast transports most of the time!

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Plague
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 15 2012, 05:42

I know I'm late to the party, but I'm playing in a friendly team "city of death" game tomorrow. 1000pts per player, no heavies or dedicated transports. Figured it would be a good opportunity to run this death star!

Vect
Urien Rakarth
4 Grotesques (1 w/ liquifier)
Abberation (w/ flesh gauntlet)

Squad starts with three pain tokens, wound allocations, Urien heals one wound each turn so he'll always get one in the shooting phase plus he d3 attacks.

I'm playing against Guard and Tyranids, if it was Grey Knights I would swap out Urien for Malys. I'll let you know how it goes.

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 15 2012, 08:54

I'd ALWAYS give scissorhands to aberrations... +2 attacks (1 for the weapon rule, 1 for additional CCW), and you'll repeat to wound almost always (unless against enemies with a T value greater than your aberration S)

flesh gauntlet is good against Tyranids... but you already have Urien in the unit... well both weapons are even if you also play against guard!

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Enfernux
Wych
Enfernux

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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 15 2012, 11:54

Points wise...
Urien Vect bomb is 670 and a squad of hydras with s10 ap1...
An archon incubi(7) bomb is 369.

Sure, the Urien Vect bomb being shot at by 3 hydras in a squad means they arent shooting anything else...but for 670 pts...to us, a 70 pt raider is a big loss, not to mention HALF our points in one squad.

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 15 2012, 12:20

I'd always use 10 grotesque squads in WWP lists. If I'm facing IG or other army with S10 weapons (2 prism eldars), I'd use another squad to start on foot or in a venom and deploy the portals...

I thought Hydras were S7 and ignoring cover saves from Flat out skimmers... S10 5'' blasts are other Leman Russ or Basilisk mounted weapons,

Edit... IG has S10 blasts in LR Demolisher (AV14, 24'' range), Medusa (Av12 36'', needs LOS) , Manticore (AV12, 4x1D3 large blast barrage missiles at 24-120'') and Deathstrike (1D3+3 inch blast, 1 shot, cannot shoot first turn etc)

I'd be scared of Manticores at any time...

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 15 2012, 15:11

@Ruke wrote:
@shadows revenge wrote:
The closet thing we have to TH/SS termies I would say are bloodbrides

Except that's not even remotely true... BB's have a 4++ save in CC, regardless of what they are being hit with, while termies have a 2+/3++ save, depending on whether or not the attack they are defending bypasses armor or not. That in itself is a HUGE difference, but it goes beyond that. Every single termie has a power weapon, so no normal armor saves, no FNP... whereas ONLY a single BB can take a power weapon, and costs 20 points to do so. Also, the S8 hits vs S3 hits...

Being completely honest, we don't have anything that equals termies, really. The closest we WOULD have would be Incubi, and those are a load of fail (or not, I just don't like them)...

Point cost? (for TH/SS Termies)
Vanilla Termie - 40pts
Dark Angel Termie - 43pts
Black Templar Termie - 34 pts (with either FC or Tank Hunter upgrade, 31 otherwise)
Space Wolves - 63 (wolfguard) or 85 (lonewolf)
Blood Angels - 45 pts
Gray Knights - 40 pts (as a troop) or 55 (for pallies) - the one thing we have against GK is that they cant take Storm Shields.

Most of these have special rules that cost 2 or 3 points/model and can make them considerably better... At their best, they cost only 12 points more than our most heavily armored squad and come stock with (probably) furious charge. I'm not going to mathhammer it out, but im pretty sure that an equal point cost of BT termies against wyches, bloodbrides, incubi, or grots would nom them up without a second thought... Regardless, they should have no problem winning combat resolution and making you run away... worst case scenario is that they do enough damage to make you flee off the board...

Actually bloodbrides fair pretty well against TH/SS Termie Marines. And this isnt even getting into drug results

5 TH/SS Termies- 200
10 Bloodbrides w/ Haywires, 3 Razorflails, Hekatrix w/ Agoniser- 210

Round 1:

BB Charge

.416 from Agoniser wounds

.663 from regular bloodbrides wounds

.829 from razorflails

1.908 termies killed (but for sake of arguement, Ill round down to 1 killed)


4 Termies strike back

1.666 bloodbrides dead (again, round down to compensate for bad rolling)

Round 2:

9 BB hit

.110 from Agoniser

.414 from regular bloodbrides

.621 from razorflails

1.145 dead termies


3 Termies Strike back

1.249 dead bloodbrides



As you see its a pretty even battle after that initial charge, and how the dice lay will determine who wins. The difference here is I didnt account for any drug (or acted like we got the 3d6 run drug) so any other result of askew this enough to push the battle into the bloodbrides favor.

I stay by my statement that bloodbrides are our TH/SS Termies


Last edited by Shadows Revenge on Mon Jun 18 2012, 14:30; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fix quote)
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Enfernux
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 15 2012, 16:59

yeah...getting them close enough is the problem. The termies will footslug if they have to, the bb...not so much.
4 incu+archon= 1.666 termies die, lets round down, 1
4 termies hit back= 0.926 incu die...round down, 0.
4 incu+standardchon 233 pts.

same here geting close is a problem...but a 1v1 against a 1v0 is convincing enough to me Razz

round 2:
dead termi: 1.222, rounded down 1
dead incu: 0.379, rounded down 0
2v0 to incu, jay.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 15 2012, 17:31

@Enfernux wrote:
yeah...getting them close enough is the problem. The termies will footslug if they have to, the bb...not so much.
4 incu+archon= 1.666 termies die, lets round down, 1
4 termies hit back= 0.926 incu die...round down, 0.
4 incu+standardchon 233 pts.

same here geting close is a problem...but a 1v1 against a 1v0 is convincing enough to me Razz

round 2:
dead termi: 1.222, rounded down 1
dead incu: 0.379, rounded down 0
2v0 to incu, jay.

How do 4 termies not do a wound??? Each are 2 attacks base, and S8. They hit on 4s and wound on 2s, ignoring armor. So that should equate to 3.332 dead Incubi (8*.5*.833= 3.332)
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 15 2012, 20:32

then ill recalculate.
1.87 for i calculated 2 in base contact with the archon.
in that case, bb are equal - rounded down - to incubi, my mistake *takes off the helmet in disbelief*

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 18 2012, 15:51

ok, lets do this

135- Archon w/ Agoniser, Shadowfield, PGL (I normally take combat drugs, but Im not getting into that math)
88- 4 Incubi

Total: 223

200- 5 Termies

Archon+Incubi hit first

Archon kills .666 (fitting isnt it)

Incubi kill 1.332 (better than I thought. That WS5 helps alot)

total: 1.998 (will round down to only 1 dead for bad dice rulls or hot saves... although I will admit I kinda wanta say two... so badly, but to be fair I rounded down the Bloodbrides as well with their 1.908)

4 Termies hit Incubi back

They kill 3.332 (again, round down to 3)

So the Archon/ 1 remaining Incubi have to test for leadership at -2, very bad postion imho

Round 2:

Archon now kills .555

the lone Incubi kills .222

total: .777 (round down to 0)

Now the termies will split, and only send one after the Incubi, while the rest gang up on the Archon. While the Incubi is almost asurely dead (83% chance of it to be precise) The Archon has a 41% chance of dying as well, which isnt bad, but we all know how well shadowfields really hold up Razz

Incubi point for point might be able to handle Termies, but this just shows that HQs in general arent point efficient (even ours, which are probably the most killy of generic HQs out there)

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Enfernux
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 18 2012, 16:08

so you dont think the opponent will want to hammer down your archon? He will want to do that, for he/she is an HQ and can pack a hell of a pain, so he will comit 2 to kill him. The shadowfield will hold if the dice god isnt upset and lady average isnt on his side.
So no, not that meny kills.

On the Shadowfield holding...yeah... Very Happy
HQs are overpriced hooligans with better than average gear, but thats the fact we have to accept if we want to play Razz Sad

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 18 2012, 16:41

@Enfernux wrote:
so you dont think the opponent will want to hammer down your archon? He will want to do that, for he/she is an HQ and can pack a hell of a pain, so he will comit 2 to kill him. The shadowfield will hold if the dice god isnt upset and lady average isnt on his side.
So no, not that meny kills.

On the Shadowfield holding...yeah... Very Happy
HQs are overpriced hooligans with better than average gear, but thats the fact we have to accept if we want to play Razz Sad

Actually yes, no good player would attack the Archon. As well all know a 2++ is the best save in the game, and its hard to kill an Archon (supposeably Razz ) While the Incubi would have no save against the thunderhammer, and it would almost guarentee the Termies to win the combat. By doing that they have a chance of making the Archon and Incubi run off, and being under half strength means they cant rally. 2 kps to 1 potentially in 1 round of combat... not bad personally

And for overpriced HQs, thats why most competitive players take either a haemie or Baron, they quickly get their points back or give you a bonus to go first (both of which are very good.) And ar cheaper than an Archon w/ Shadowfield and Agoniser
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Kabal of the Barbed Heart
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 23 2012, 12:31

Vect, Dias of destruction, Lelith, 8 Harlequins w. death jester and a shadow seer.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 23 2012, 12:44

Death Jester for harleys? Why give an assault squad a shooting model, who will not have any effect, for you will be running most of the time to get in to assault range, or are going to shoot with that one model, wasting the potential of the harleys.

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Kabal of the Barbed Heart
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 23 2012, 15:34

Fair enough. Replace her with a troupe master w. a harley kiss.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 23 2012, 16:17

personally I think the troupe master with a power weapon (what he comes with base) is better, they have FC anyway, might as well always punch through armor

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 23 2012, 23:22

Troupe Master: 20 pts for +1 A and +1 ld...no thanks. Vect is enough there, dont need a TM Razz
Shadows, the TM doesnt come with a PW basically, he can just exchange his CCW for a PW or a harley kiss.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: DE Deathstars   DE Deathstars - Page 6 I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 24 2012, 00:32

I actually have never been a big fan of death star units. I always feel that they are not point effecient as you are usually putting all of your eggs in one baskit.

Death Stars are fun, but a single battle cannon shot will ruin your day more oftain then not. I prefer to spread the wealth through out the army more.

for example instead of having Vect, a Haemo, 7-8 incubi with upgrades in a raider for an insane ammount of points you could spread the points around a little bit and still have a very effective assault turn.

like instead of vect take a normal Archon to save you 80-100pts. take only 5-7 Incubi without all the extra crap in a raider with ff.
the Haemo could go wherever. supporting wyches, archon if you feel the need....ect...
or by saving points take an awesome beast pack with a small 5 man incubi unit in venom for combat support.

Anyhow Death star units are cool. They just aren't for me is all.

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