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ThePain
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PostSubject: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2012, 13:53

hello guys i was just wondering if anyone has any good input on what i should get next that might help what i have?

here's what i have so far;

HQ
Hamonculus w/ liquifier gun

lelith hesperax

ELITES
Incubi x5 *

TROOPS
kabalite warriors 8x w/ blaster

wyches 10x w/ hydra gauntlets, razorflails, haywire grenades*

FAST ATTACK
scourges 5x w/ 2x Dark lances

reavers 6x w/ 2x blaster

hellions 5x w/ phantasm grenade launcher, stunclaw

*Venom
* Raider w/ flickerfield


i've been playing these aginst 2000pt armies, either space wolves or chaos marines. i usually put the haemonculus with the kabalite warriors mainly becuase he has no where else to go and he bolsters that squad up a bit. i usually drop the incubi to 4 and put lelith with them but it's not been a brilliant mix, so i put her with wyches and made them a squad of nine (good idea?)

I really REALLY do love the reaver jetbikes, but every game i have had they get pasted by bolter fire, even if i have made a turbo boost! i usually like to get them popping transports, thier roles may change depending on what drug they get, but usually it will stay the same. i have considered putting heat lances on them instead, but str 8 lance vs str 6 lance is hard to choose from (from a newbs point of view anyways Wink )

The scourges i fly up to a nice vantage point and pop tanks - well try to as they always roll 1's Sad . i am not sure if jumping them about is a good idea? i know jump infantry have relentless but i gather they would be better off sniping with dark lances?

the hellions..... well i thought i'd get these as most places ont he web say these are better than beastmasters (which i really wanted) but i literally don't have the slightest clue what they should and shouldn't be upgrades with nor thier role on the field.

the first thing i can think of getting is obviously transports and more wyches. heavy support i am a bit stumped though.. i want 2 voidraven bombers for the 4 void lances and 2 void mines, maybe add some missiles for a nice bit of fire support. and i'd like a talos pain engine. for the cc goodness.

before i forget, the sw army runs either arjack rockfist with terms or big unkillable dog riders, and about 40 troops and the usual long fang annihalation teams.

the chaos is abaddon or the mad sorcerer with a 100 attacks, complemented by khorne beserkers, plague marines, and defilers - so lots of do-what-he-wants shrug off daemonic possesion stuff. oh yeah and the chaos guy has like 7 - 10 chosen all with meltaguns No

finally i shall apologise for the rambling if you have read this far and not turned your computer off in disgust!

cheers

ThePain
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MrBrokenAzs
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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2012, 18:36

Is that a list? or your unit count?

Im rather confused here

Is it against a specific army? Or an all comers list? or fluffy?

This isnt even a 2k army, once i have an idea ill be able to help a little more.
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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2012, 21:26

Sounds good, exept i normally swap reavers and hellions for ravagers or razorwings. But given the amount of AT you have already got probably razorwings with dark lances and monoscythe missiles.

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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 17 2012, 23:12

Scourges w/DL are a waste... go for heat lances or haywire blasters.

go either hydra gauntlets or razorflails on your wyches, not both... and i suggest shardnet/impalers (think most others would tell you the same) which work better overall as they dont rely on drug rolls to maximize their effects.

Im assuming that the homun is going to start with the warriors? which doesnt make any sense to me, but as you will... I suggest losing the homun altogether and replacing lellith with a archon. He'll be cheaper and work better for you, i think you'll find. Give him a shadowfield, soultrap, combat drugs and your flavor of melee weapon and he'll be rollin pretty hardcore. you can toss him in with the incubi to up their leadership to 10.

get rid of the hellions. The unit is too small to be effective at anything, and is really just going to give away a kp.

toss out the reavers as well. if you want their lance weapons, you're better off with scourges as you get more options, a better save, and you can take 2 special weapons with the equivalent of 1 less unit than with reaver units.

you're very very light on AT. Find the points for 3 ravagers, they'll serve you well. If you find yourself going up against lots of footslogging infantry, take dissies over DL to hurt lots of marines very badly.

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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 18 2012, 02:12

I think that you will find that Hellions are far more effective when run in larger units of 14-20, and with the Baron to make them a scoring Troop choice. I would dump the stunclaw for an agonizer any day of the week.

I would pick up as many Raiders and Ravagers as your wallet can stand. Ravagers are so worth their points as a cheap AT option that it will make your head spin after you've gotten used to them when you think about how you ever played without them.

Play around with what you've got, but I think that you will find that more Dark Lances and mobility will always serve you well.

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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 18 2012, 05:03

going off of what elves said, just remember that DL are heavy weapons, and you want to stay mobile... dont put them on a unit that wont be able to fire and move at the same time.

Also, jump inf isnt relentless... dont know where you got that idea.

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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 18 2012, 21:14

I have wyches (use them as bloodbride's) with razor flails and hydra gauntlets and they work really well.
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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 18 2012, 23:32

@ MrBrokenAzs - sorry i have sort of rambled on a bit. it's basically a list of what i have. my main enemies are chaos marine and space wolves so i guess i'd like it to be geared towards dealing with marines, but chaos and space wolves will have thier differences so maybe an all comers? also i'ts not at 2000 yet because with what i have bought it stands at 1161 and i don't want to be hasty and buy stuff that i like the look of but is maybe shabby in the game. i am, experimenting if you will and asking you guys (the vets) what i should ditch/change to make it better.

@ V'rach - see maybe the ravager is better than the razorwing, i only want the voidraven because if i have to sacrifice a 3 DL's for two i like the idea of them being str 9 instead of str 8, packs a bit more punch.

@ Ruke - why would you choose the heat lance over the DL? i sort of understand with the haywaire blaster.. partially. the 2 - 5 glancing is excellent ( my wyches mangled a LR crusader by just assaulting it with the haywire grenades.

also why the shardnet and impaler? hydra gauntlets are great i know but the shardnet and impaler only negate - 1 attack to whomever is in base contact with her, so thats, what, 3 men at most? and space wolves roll counter charge with ease, so minus 3 attacks won't make too much difference surely?

haemonculus with the kabalite warriors... i know, he's literally with them becasue i have nothing else to put him with, i want to get wracks and like the idea of them as troops if he is included. i'd like to have three, maybe put one with a wych squad for the free token boost. i'm thinking if i go to 2500 to make the 8 kabs into trueborn with blasters so i can have a bit of extra punch, plus i sort of like wyches better than kabalite warriors! :p

yeah, i just checked the rulebook, it seems only jump infantry with jetpacks have relentless! my bad, i see why heatlances are better now!! lol

@Evil Space Elves - yeah i heard somewhere that 15+ hellions were the best way to field them, to be honest i put the stunclaw in so i could pull an independent character away with me (wolf lord on big dog) and it failed miserably! lol

i agree on the transports, they do seem integral to the army, my friend blew my raider away and the wyches were just meatgrinded as they tried to hug cover and get upfield.

see the baron seems like a good choice, except i have 2 already, i love the haemies lelith is cool too, dunno if the baron is better, he could be... A League Apart is a great rule, it tempts me too much! Smile

@dofus98 - yeah i have split my wyches up before, used half as bloodbrides the other norms. they did ok to be fair, i think i prefer them in squads of ten though and i like them as troop options rather than elites! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 19 2012, 07:10

You don't want to run your wyches into sqauds of normal marines... not at first anyway... Use them to mitigate larger problems like terminators, dreadnaughts, but no large squads unless they have nothing left to hit. Wyches, for the most part, arent there to win cc, they're just there to slow down things until you decide its time to deal with them. So, whats a dreadnaught with -2 attacks, when you have a 4++ save? or a termie? Thing is, the majority of your wounds is going to come off of your heck, you just need to buy her the time to make them.

Also, remember that its "base to base contact" for the shardnets. Theres no reason why each model cant get into b2b with multiple models. how much do you think the SW are going to like their counter charge when they lose 4-6 attacks because of your placement of 2 models?

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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 19 2012, 16:31

Ruke wrote:
You don't want to run your wyches into sqauds of normal marines... not at first anyway... Use them to mitigate larger problems like terminators, dreadnaughts, but no large squads unless they have nothing left to hit. Wyches, for the most part, arent there to win cc, they're just there to slow down things until you decide its time to deal with them. So, whats a dreadnaught with -2 attacks, when you have a 4++ save? or a termie? Thing is, the majority of your wounds is going to come off of your heck, you just need to buy her the time to make them.

Also, remember that its "base to base contact" for the shardnets. Theres no reason why each model cant get into b2b with multiple models. how much do you think the SW are going to like their counter charge when they lose 4-6 attacks because of your placement of 2 models?

lol it's completely mad that i didn't think of that before. it does make perfect sense really to tie up bigger problems as that inv save is actually pretty good in cc.

right so, as it stands, more ravagers, more raiders, hydra gauntlet/ shardnet impaler combo's if they are 10 man squads.

how about wracks? they seem pretty good, but i like the idea of them in 5 man squads with a venom, or are tehy much better off in squads of ten? and having fnp at first might be ok for holding obj's. i'm not too sure..

might plop the heat lances on the scourges, haywire thing seems better if they were in a squad of ten.
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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 19 2012, 17:51

ThePain wrote:


right so, as it stands, more ravagers, more raiders, hydra gauntlet/ shardnet impaler combo's if they are 10 man squads.

how about wracks? they seem pretty good, but i like the idea of them in 5 man squads with a venom, or are tehy much better off in squads of ten? and having fnp at first might be ok for holding obj's. i'm not too sure..

might plop the heat lances on the scourges, haywire thing seems better if they were in a squad of ten.

no just shardnets on wychs if you plan to use them as a tarpit.

generally people get 3-5 and put their venom on the table, while reserving the squad and hope they come late enough to just walk on and hold. of they give them a liquifer and leave them inside until the venom blows up.

heat lance vs haywire all depends on if your bringing a wwp, what you want to use them for, can opener or stun lock? (and that all depends on how many necron and GK players are in your meta. but generally people only use them in squads of 5 as they are more of a suicide unit and 2 squads of 5 while costing the same as one of ten allows for more flexibility in deployment and moving.

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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 20 2012, 04:14

Quote :
or they give them a liquifer and leave them inside until the venom blows up.

My preferred method.

Quote :
generally people only use them in squads of 5 as they are more of a suicide unit and 2 squads of 5 while costing the same as one of ten allows for more flexibility in deployment and moving.

Precisely

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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 20 2012, 09:42

thanks guys, this is all very useful stuff!

@ Baron Tordeck - unfortunately i'm such a newb that wwp seems foriegn, am i safe to assume it means web way portal??

if they sit in the venoms though, they can't hold the objective can they? well thats what i have been told...

i guess i'd use the scourges as can openers, that way i can permanently slow them down and take away some cover in the process. as for playing GK and necrons the choas player is planning to get GK, but not anytime soon. there is a necron player, but when/if i play him it will be on very rare occasions.

@ Ruke - in an earlier post you suggested a kitted out archon, is a normal kitted out archon mosre cost effective then, let's say, Asdrubael Vect? i guess this question is open to everyone to answer. i do love the idea of an archon with my incubi. my incubi always perfrom amazingly and i'd definitley get more of them
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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 20 2012, 14:01

ThePain wrote:

@ Baron Tordeck - unfortunately i'm such a newb that wwp seems foriegn, am i safe to assume it means web way portal??

yes it means web way portal.

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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 20 2012, 17:49

Quote :
if they sit in the venoms though, they can't hold the objective can they? well thats what i have been told...

False, I have never read that anywhere...

Quote :
is a normal kitted out archon mosre cost effective then, let's say, Asdrubael Vect? i guess this question is open to everyone to answer.

That's a very tough comparison, because Vect has some awesome abilities. Vect has a higher WS and BS, has the obsidian orbs that he can use to heal himself (if he hasn't been ID), a power weapon that wounds on a 3+, preferred enemy against everything, and seizes the init on 4+.

Vect is a badass.

Vect doesn't have a phantasm grenade launcher.

Vect costs 240 points.

If you're running a HQ with incubi, the PGL is a necessity, since Incubi don't come standard with assault grenades. and the PGL is a option for an archon. An archon with a nice kit is 175 points, but you can easily shave that down to just over a hundred.

Kitted archon - Huskblade, Haywire Grenades, Combat Drugs, Soul Trap, PGL, Shadowfield - 175 points
Unkitted Archon - Agoniser, PGL, Shadowfield - 135 points

What it boils down to, is what do you want to put the HQ with, and how many points are you willing to spend. Vect runs really well with Wyches and amazing with Bloodbrides. Archon can run with them as well, and should do almost as well as Vect, but if you're running incubi an archon with the PGL is the way you want to go.

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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 20 2012, 23:11

[quote="Ruke"]
Quote :

False, I have never read that anywhere...

fair enough, i hope that is the case. probs won't sit well with the group lol! i'll have to check up on that one to cover my own ass!! Wink

[quote="Ruke"]
Quote :
That's a very tough comparison, because Vect has some awesome abilities. Vect has a higher WS and BS, has the obsidian orbs that he can use to heal himself (if he hasn't been ID), a power weapon that wounds on a 3+, preferred enemy against everything, and seizes the init on 4+.

Vect is a badass.

Vect doesn't have a phantasm grenade launcher.

Vect costs 240 points.

If you're running a HQ with incubi, the PGL is a necessity, since Incubi don't come standard with assault grenades. and the PGL is a option for an archon. An archon with a nice kit is 175 points, but you can easily shave that down to just over a hundred.

Kitted archon - Huskblade, Haywire Grenades, Combat Drugs, Soul Trap, PGL, Shadowfield - 175 points
Unkitted Archon - Agoniser, PGL, Shadowfield - 135 points

What it boils down to, is what do you want to put the HQ with, and how many points are you willing to spend. Vect runs really well with Wyches and amazing with Bloodbrides. Archon can run with them as well, and should do almost as well as Vect, but if you're running incubi an archon with the PGL is the way you want to go.

yeah, incubi with archon seems the best way, a court doesn't seem to offer much from what i can make out.

i've read up on huskblade soul trap combo's which seem cool, but if an archon with the squad kills the IC/mc can i still use the soul trap? or do i have to go one on one? it doesn't seem to say so in the codex and i only ask because like int he guard codex there are rules that people interpret differently.

i Love the idea of seizing the initiative on a 4+ but i guess if i want to run the archon with the incubi then thats the way to go!

cheers for thr help! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 21 2012, 01:49

I've never used the huskblade/soultrap personally, but my understanding is that the archon can be joined with a squad and have it go off. Just have to make sure that the archon is the one who deals the killing blow.

To save time, roll the archons attacks first?

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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 21 2012, 03:33

BRB p.90 wrote:
Unit of Troops embarked in a transport can control
objectives (measure the distance to their vehicle’s hull).

Consider your ass covered Wink

The answer to the Soultrap question is pretty easy. The Soultrap can be used whenever the bearer kills an IC or MC, but how can you see, if a IC or MC was killed by the bearer or one of his squadmates?
First there is the initiative order. So if an Archon has an I-Score of 7 and Incubi have one of 5, they obviously strike at different points of time and should be rolled separately. If the Archon killed the IC, it is allready dead, when the Incubi strike, if not, then he can't use the Soultrap
But what happens, if let's say a Haemonculus Ancient, strikes at I 5 like Incubi do?
Everything that happens at one initiative value happens at the same time.
so it's not as easy, but secondly they use (most likely) different weapons and different weapons are rolled separately anyway.
But what happens, if an IC or MC suffers unsaved wounds from a Soultrap bearer and other models at the same initiative value? Who killed it?
Remember the "everything happens at the same time" part? They all killed it simultaneously.

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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 21 2012, 08:38

@ Ruke - yeah i guess that makes sense.. Smile

@ Tiri Rana - thanks for that, i have been looking at the wrong pages it seems. this dispute came up a while ago with by guard vets holding obj's in chimeras, now i can show the page number and quote! Smile

Tiri Rana wrote:
First there is the initiative order. So if an Archon has an I-Score of 7 and Incubi have one of 5, they obviously strike at different points of time and should be rolled separately. If the Archon killed the IC, it is allready dead, when the Incubi strike, if not, then he can't use the Soultrap.

so if i understand you rightly, if i killed an IC in a squad he joined with the archon and wanted to use the soul trap i'd have to sacrifice my incubi not attacking?

surely though, if i decide to attack thier IC with my, let's say, 5 huskblade attacks from the archon, wouldn't he just allocate them where he wants?
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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 21 2012, 14:22

Its all done Initiative order. SO if your archon and incubi are all in B2B with a single model IC/MC and your archon kills it then the incubi arnt gunna be able to swing as there is nothing to attack.

On the other hand if your achon and a couple incubi are in B2B with an IC/MC thats part of a larger squad and the archon kills the IC/MC then the incubi will just swing at the squad.

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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 21 2012, 14:24

ThePain wrote:

so if i understand you rightly, if i killed an IC in a squad he joined with the archon and wanted to use the soul trap i'd have to sacrifice my incubi not attacking?

surely though, if i decide to attack thier IC with my, let's say, 5 huskblade attacks from the archon, wouldn't he just allocate them where he wants?

Nope.

BRB p.49 wrote:
When the attacks
are resolved, however, independent characters are
always treated as a separate single-model unit (as
described under Multiple Combats on page 41), even
though they have joined the unit.

So no, hits hitting the IC can't be allocated away, since you can't allocate hits to different units.
BUT keep in mind, that your Archon counts as own unit, too.

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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 21 2012, 14:37

In melee combat, you can direct attacks at a IC that you are in b2b with, instead of the squad they are attached to. Just make sure to put your archon in b2b with the IC you want dead.

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PostSubject: Re: complete newb   complete newb I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 22 2012, 22:44

Excellent, thanks for the help guys. i'm gonna have to try this, perhaps against the thunderwolves and lord on thunderwolf, unless he puts saga of the bear on him, then i can't insta-kill him and i'll be gutted.... lol Razz
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