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 Wyches vs Bloodbrides

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Oqlanth
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PostSubject: Wyches vs Bloodbrides   Wyches vs Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 09 2012, 14:32

For last few weeks I am thinking on these two Kult units. To field which one.... first let describe pros and cons of them

Wyches

Cons

*One less attack for each model.
*With one less attack ,Wych weapon Razorflails is less effective.
*One less Agoniser attack with unit sergeant ('Hekatrix')
*May field only 1 wych weapon per 5 models. Which means you can only field 2 wych weapons for a Raider squad.
*If you lose your sergeant your Ld value drops to 8


Pros
*Troop and scoring unit
*3 points cheaper than elite version.


Bloodbrides

Cons

*Cost an elite slot and not a scoring unit
*3 Point expensive

Pros

*One more attack per model.
*With one more attack with model, Wych weapon Razorflail is little more effective
*Unit sergeant makes one more attack so one more Agoniser attack
*May take 1 wych weapon per 3 model which means you can field 9 model squad and have 3 wych weapons, and still got place for an independent character to accompy them for a Raider squad
*With more wych weapons option they have greater CC tricks (i.e. two shardnet against multi attack enemy unit)
*Their default Ld is 9 so even you lose your sergeant you still have Ld 9


And similarities; both unit have very high WS, In, fleet and PfP. And again both unit got terrible Armour save but good dodge save. Which means they need to reach their enemy as fast as they can and have stucked in combat.

Well...so what must be the question about fielding Wyches or Bloodbrides?
It is 'Do I need a scoring CC unit or do I save my elite slots for other units?'

From my point of view, Wyches as scoring unit is not a great option. Wrack or Kabalites do this job much better. With their terrible Armour and rather low T value and with virtualy no shooting, they are not my priority as scoring unit.

About elite slot, all other elite slot except Incubis are worthless. Wrack are practicaly a Troop slot (unless you don't field a Heamonculi which is like 'must be' in every Dark Eldar army). Both Incubi and Bloodbrides are CC units. Incubis are better especialy against MEQs BUT they are very expensive and must be accompied with Archon (i.e. for PGL)

But againts hordes like Nids or Guards or Orks Bloodbrides are much more effective and cheaper.
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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Bloodbrides   Wyches vs Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 09 2012, 16:05

Quote :
About elite slot, all other elite slot except Incubis are worthless.

Seriously? Half of the DE anti mech is in the elite slot (in the form of blasterborn/lanceborn) Also, you can see my rant about Incubi in the army list section.

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Oqlanth
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Bloodbrides   Wyches vs Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 09 2012, 17:36

@Ruke wrote:
Quote :
About elite slot, all other elite slot except Incubis are worthless.

Seriously? Half of the DE anti mech is in the elite slot (in the form of blasterborn/lanceborn) Also, you can see my rant about Incubi in the army list section.

You are right, I missed Venom Trueborn combo...But all other facts are true.
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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Bloodbrides   Wyches vs Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 09 2012, 19:03

I think it really depends on how you intend to use them.

I don't necessarily look at wyches as a scoring unit perse, they are definitely not a unit one would choose to camp an objective. The fact is that as a troop choice they occupy the most numerically advantageous position in the FOC, and allow you to take multiple units without much effect if you will on the rest of your army.

You raise valid points regarding their make-up, and yes bloodbrides are more effective killing machines, however wyches arent necessarily meant to be first turn killing machines. If either unit wipes their target on the charge, they are gonna see alot of fire, FNP is nice, but a 6+ save isn't. Wyches are our best tar-pit unit imho, and do a great job of keeping the enemy from shooting at us while we get into position. Sure they can be kitted up to annihilate GEQ even MEQ; but against close combat nightmares (im looking at you GK) it has been my experience they tend to get rolled pretty quickly. Even 10 or so extra attacks arent reallly going to help, half will hit and a third of those will wound on average, so do the points and elite slot justify 1-2 more wounds that get saved on a 3+ or even 2+?

So it comes to what our army is best at, making opponents fight where we want them to. We do best when we pile on the hate one enemy unit at a time, through overwhelming firepower, as unfairly and as onesided as we possibly can. But if that nasty piece of T3/AV10 smashing death that our opponent has gets to grips with us all our plans are for naught. If a troop choce that costs you 150 points-ish (sans raider) ties up a dreadnaught, or blows up a predator, or keeps an otherwise potential game changing unit from downing something vital to our master plan, then it's done it's job. There is nothing more satisfying than watching a termie deathstar walk the length of a table because the rest of your army has moved out of range in the 2 turns your wyches held them up. Sure they died, but Commoragh is full of volunteers.

All in all, comparing point for point and arriving at the conclusion that all other elites except blasterborn are worthless I think is in error. When it comes to horde armies consider a 9 man Trueborn unit, with 2 Splinter Cannons and 7 Shard Carbines deployed with the Duke in a raider. Granted your point cost is higher as the Duke is spendy (but if you are running lots of combat drug dependant units he's invaluable) 33 shots per turn at 18 inches hitting on 3's wound on 3's ap5 is far more horde thinning than a squad of 10 bloodbrides with 3 wych weapons, and the unit cost for just the unit is actually less than the bloodbrides. Only one unit in the bloodbrides is going to ignore armour, whereas against guard/nids/orcs most of the time shooting will ignore armour. They could get cover, but if you've done it right you should get a couple turns of shooting before the horde hits you.

Just my opinion.

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callofdoobie
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Bloodbrides   Wyches vs Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 05 2012, 08:39

I take Bloodbrides in my Sliscus list because I have a better shot at getting good combat drugs(got +1 atk earlier today and tore through 20 necron warriors w/ a cryptek and lord like butter). Honestly, unless your planning on have a Succubus for your HQ, I wouldn't use them without him, anything but a 3, 4, or 5 really doesn't help them much(as the above poster pointed out FNP is only SO good when you're toughness 3 and have 6+ armor, did someone say heavy flamer?), so if you take them w/o Duke you got a 50/50 chance they just become slightly better wyches.


Also, while Incubi are my fav unit in our army, I got to disagree with you on the other elites being worthless; trueborn are AMAZING, sooo many combinations you can do(I like to run 5 in a 2 splinter cannon venom w/ 2 splinter cannons and 3 carbines) they are by far the most versatile unit we have.

Throwing my two cents out there, best of luck!
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Bloodbrides   Wyches vs Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 05 2012, 11:43

IMO blood rides are almost worthless. Wyches do basically the same thing, cheaper and scoring to boot. The extra 1 attack at S3 is hardly worth it

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eldargal
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Bloodbrides   Wyches vs Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 06 2012, 14:22

Blood brides with a succubus or Lelith and three hydra gauntlets put out an obscene number of attacks (60-70 with good rolls) enough to overwhelm a lot of even well armoured units simply through numbers. In my experience at least.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Bloodbrides   Wyches vs Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 09 2012, 23:17

bloodbrides can be useful, as they kill more than they tarpit, the problem being is their competing against trueborn for a slot, which is by far a better choice.

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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Bloodbrides   Wyches vs Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2012, 00:26

The primary use isn't the extra attacks but the extra wych weapon while still allowing for an IC. 3 Shardnets are extremely mean, as are 3 Hydra Gauntlets, both for their obvious uses.

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eldargal
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Bloodbrides   Wyches vs Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 10 2012, 08:59

That is a matter of opinion, I've found trueborn to be extremely hit and miss. Like most things in the codex I think it comes down to personal preference.
@Shadows Revenge wrote:
bloodbrides can be useful, as they kill more than they tarpit, the problem being is their competing against trueborn for a slot, which is by far a better choice.
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MurderingBastard
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Bloodbrides   Wyches vs Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 12 2012, 18:27

Bloodbrides are what Wyches should have been, really. If they wanted to make an "elite" version of them, it needed more punch (i.e., Agonisers or something along those lines versus the Hydra Gauntlet/Razorflail "upgrades") than they currently possess. If I want to beat up crappy infantry, Wracks do the job better. If I want to defeat power armour, Incubi do the job better. If I want a unit that does both (plus has Melta), Harlequins do the job better.

Bloodbrides and wyches both just sorta miss the mark, IMO.

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eldargal
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Bloodbrides   Wyches vs Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 14 2012, 06:19

Wyches are a tarpit, Bloodbrides are a tarpit that can kill things. You use Wyches to clog up enemy combt units so your other units can do their job without getting cut to ribbons.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Bloodbrides   Wyches vs Bloodbrides I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 14 2012, 06:54

@MurderingBastard wrote:
Bloodbrides are what Wyches should have been, really. If they wanted to make an "elite" version of them, it needed more punch (i.e., Agonisers or something along those lines versus the Hydra Gauntlet/Razorflail "upgrades") than they currently possess. If I want to beat up crappy infantry, Wracks do the job better. If I want to defeat power armour, Incubi do the job better. If I want a unit that does both (plus has Melta), Harlequins do the job better.

Bloodbrides and wyches both just sorta miss the mark, IMO.

Wyches are OK I guess, but Bloodbrides should of been WS5 on top of what they are now, and maybe the option for 2x Agonizers. Right now, I take Wyches but BBs are out of the question because of points:kill ratio.
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