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Smurfy
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 27 2011, 00:10

It's not cheating at all, it's how the Wargear is worded. The whole argument of paying 5 points for 3 more attacks compared to 20 points for 2 is kinda funny, though. I use it as a PW if I so choose, and have never had someone manage to argue otherwise.
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 27 2011, 02:44

Actually, this "I pay more for less" is 100% correct interpretation. You have 2 "special" CCW that are NOT the same, Djin Blade and PW.

Also... what the hell just happened with this topic? I'm truly confused...

here is how I see it:

Djin Blade is special Close Combat Weapon and it follows all rules of weapons. Beeing in different "label" does not magically make it "not-weapon". It is weapon because description says so.
You pair it with pistol/CCW, You get +1 bonus attack. You pair it with special/two handedweapon - You don't get bonus.

[edit]
Oh, checked first post again. IMHO You still get +2 attacks, just like You would have +2 to your base attacks. Obviously you follow all rules of used weapon, including additional bonus attack. Rule of those +2 attacks say "bearer", not "user" so IMHO by RAW you may use something different (to make it less confusing, I would call it "2+ attacks to base profile", which actually isn't true, but in this case it doesn't matter since effect is the same.).

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SinisterPlank
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 27 2011, 11:45

If it had said
Quote :
"ignoring armor saves as a power weapon
I would agree with you.
Sience it says
Quote :
Djinn Blade Is A Power Weapon
You're wrong.

But one thing we can all agree on, this discussion is beyond pointless. Sience you keep claiming quotes directly and unchanged from the rulebook and codex are irrelevant, and continue to counter with quotes you've invented yourselves to fit your view, I'll just stop bothering.
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 27 2011, 12:10

I wonder if posting photo of entry description would violate rule no.7 (about GW IP) of Dark City.


It is power weapon.
Description says :"Bla bla bla. A djin blade is power weapon. Bla bla bla"

Page 56, second sentence, "Djin Blade" paragraph.
Exactly like that, PW with additional bonus.

Again, for some reason you confused it with Servo Arm, which ISN'T technically weapon (it just does additonal attack on it's own)

But hey, You still get additional attack with pistol/CCW combo.

Wow, now I sound like lawer.

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rider
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 27 2011, 12:43

p84:

under "Options" [NOT under Wargear]
* Take any of the following:
- Djin blade......... X points

It most definietly is NOT listed under Wargear.

Go to p56:

WEAPONS

Djin blade: A djin blade...fluffflufffluff...blade's owner. A djin blade is a power weapon. Furthermore the bearer makes two bonus attacks every round of combat - roll these seperately. If any double is rolled for these two attacks when rolling to hit, the blade rebels against its wielder - the two attacks automatically hit the bearer.

point 1: the djin blade is listed under the Weapons section of wargear - ie: it is a WEAPON.
point 2: the djin blade is a power weapon.
point 3: the bearer makes 2 additional attacks that are separate to any other attacks.

from the main rules you can do the following:
combine a power weapon with a pistol for +1 attack.
combine a power weapon with a power weapon for +1 attack.
you may not combine a power weapon with any other special weapon type for +1 attack.
to gain ANY bonus from a WEAPON you must actually be using the weapon.

this gives:

an archon with a pistol and a djin blade will have:
4 attacks base (all S3 power weapon attacks)
+1 for the two CCW weapons (pistol and power weapon - extra power weapon attack)
THEN 2 attacks rolled seperately from the Djin blade, using the normal power weapon rules, but they may hit the bearer.

this is the only way i can interpret this as the rules for the Djin blade do note exclude the +1 attack in CC for having a power weapon and pistol. in fact the very use of "Furthermore the bearer makes two bonus attacks every round of combat - roll these seperately" makes it perfectly clear that these are ADDITIONS to the combat.

if you take an agoniser or venom blade you would be unable to simply carry around the djin blade and claim the extra attacks in any way, shape or form unless you actually use it. in which case you would lose the extra attack for 2 ccw as you can't claim the bonus if they are not the same special ccw.

if you take the above scenario, you could go into combat with an agoniser and djin blade.
you would get:
4 attacks with the agoniser (4+ wounding power weapon)
2 attacks with the djin blade (standard S3 power weapon, except it may hit bearer)

with a venom blade and djin blade it would be:
4 attacks with venom blade (2+ wounding weapon, allows saves)
2 attacks with the djin blade (standard S3 power weapon, except it may hit bearer)

i don't think there is any argument anywhere in there that says the djin blade is "wargear" and not a "weapon" and that you therefore don't need to actually use it to claim the bonus.

if you want to argue the bearer/wielder point, look at the definition of the two words:

bearer: One who bears. [the meaning of bears is: To be equipped with, carry or wield something.]

wielder: one who wields. [the meaning of wields is: To handle with skill and ease, especially of a weapon or tool]

note the overlap in definition.......
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Mortis_Infernale
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 27 2011, 19:07

You, dear sir, have earned my life-long gratitude, couldn't put it better Smile
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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 27 2011, 20:05

There is one conclusion from this topic: Dark City is crowded with lawyers.

Ill wait for faq.

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rider
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 27 2011, 20:52

there is no lawyering in my post. it is a clear statement of the rules.

your mistaken assumption that the djin blade acts as wargear and provides bonuses without actually being used is where the problem lies.
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 27 2011, 21:22

As far as I can see rider is totally right. The one point that still remains unclear to me is quite moot: whether the Djin Blade can be combined with a regular PW for the bonus +1A for two cc Weapons of the 'same kind'. But hell, just pick the splinter pistol and be done with it! Razz

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 27 2011, 23:29

Sadly, no it can't. PW and "PW with bonus" aren't exactly the same special weapons, just like Venom Blade and Scissorhand.
Also, why mix them? It's kinda like Blaster/Blast Pistol to keep evrything in DE book. 100% NOT optimal choice.





But obviously possible one.

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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 30 2011, 05:56

It seems this thread is moving further from a consensus the longer it goes, there were fewer interpretations at start. This only shows the need for faq. Till then I'll stick with huskblade and pistol, fewer disputes and no chance of archon killing himself.
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rider
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 30 2011, 10:12

@Local_Ork wrote:
Sadly, no it can't. PW and "PW with bonus" aren't exactly the same special weapons, just like Venom Blade and Scissorhand.
Also, why mix them? It's kinda like Blaster/Blast Pistol to keep evrything in DE book. 100% NOT optimal choice.





But obviously possible one.

i agree with this one, the blade is NOT a regular power weapon, it si a special power weapon.

see the examples in my big post earlier for combining the djin blade with other weapons.
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GJR [40k]
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 30 2011, 12:32

Whilst not on the GW FAQ, in this kind of case I usually refer to the INAT FAQ http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/up/INATFAQv4.3.1.pdf which is usually pretty on the money for interpretation.

DE.56C.01 – Q: Does a „Djin Blade‟ still provide its
two bonus attacks if the bearer fights with a
different special close combat weapon?
A: No, as it is a special close combat weapon, if the bearer
chooses to fight with a different special close combat
weapon then no benefit is gained from the Djin Blade for
that round of combat [clarification].

I always consider this FAQ to be as close to official as you could get, and even without it, this is how I would view the rules for the Djinn Blade. It is described as a "power weapon" with additional rules (making it a special close combat weapon, just like the Huskblade and Agoniser for example). Everything from then on should reference the rules for using two different special weapons on pg42 of the brb.
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 30 2011, 15:59

I dont count that thing any more official than any other tournament organizers FAQ. It has been spot on before and been miles off before. To me it's not much differant than calling gw for an anwser...

How does the d.blade get around the fact that u have 3 one handed weapons ? AFAIK u can only ever have 2. I looked through all my codicies last nite and couldnt find any good similar examples... I think the BT chaplains can do something similar inthat they can take two wep upgrades and seem to be able to keep their crozias (spelling)
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 30 2011, 16:11

@MaxKool wrote:
I dont count that thing any more official than any other tournament organizers FAQ. It has been spot on before and been miles off before. To me it's not much differant than calling gw for an anwser...
True, but it is from a neutral source and not someone fighting their corner for the interpretation to be in their favour. Can you honestly say that in this example they are "miles off"?

@MaxKool wrote:
How does the d.blade get around the fact that u have 3 one handed weapons ? AFAIK u can only ever have 2. I looked through all my codicies last nite and couldnt find any good similar examples... I think the BT chaplains can do something similar inthat they can take two wep upgrades and seem to be able to keep their crozias (spelling)
Page 37 of the main rulebook explains that models with more than two weapons get no additional benefits. There is no rule that says you can only have two weapons. You can theoretically have as many as the army list legitimately allows you to. It is just in combat you can only use two of them.
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 30 2011, 16:25

Big Mek with Power Armour can have TL Shoota, Flamer/PW (Burna) and Power Klaw...

Absolutely nothing prevent you from having 2+ weapons.

Also, in our codex we have plenty of other similar examples.

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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 30 2011, 16:30

Well not that I could see. Most units entries had the wep. Options And then a list of wargear... It's hard to compare codices looking for ideas as they have been written at different times. For example, the BT codex has the armory still and it's very s
Clear as to what replaces or upgrades what.

As far as innat goes , nothin will change my opinion on that thing. Its not official it dosnt matter what it says if its not gw. I can get a rules lawyer to write me a FAQ that contains good info... It's still not gw so it has no weight to me.

On topic, I can see it going either way, knowing what a dijin is it fluffwise, I can see Where both sides have a point. Raw it's a weapon, it's in the wargear in the same place as all the other wepons. If thats not clear I don't know what is. It's not in the arcane wargear section. Also note that the hemmy has weapon choices mixed in with his "options" in the unit entry.

Personally I dont use it... Str3 sucks. But when I read the codex I pictured a sword familiar type thing. It seems like it's a floating blade and if it gets mad(rolls doubles) it hits u for being a jerk.

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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 05 2011, 10:09

I think this GW FAQ could be applied.
Quote :
Q: When a model has multiple special close combat
weapons, do they only gain the effects of the one they
choose to use in each round of combat or do they gain the
effects of all of the special weapons that they have? (p56)
A: They will only gain the effect of the weapon they choose
to use. For example a Haemonculus has a huskblade and
an animus vitae. If he chooses to use his huskblade, he
will not be able to attempt to gain a pain token from his
animus vitae.

The Huskblade is a special weapon, I know no one will argue that.
The Animus Vitae, while the entry says it is a special close combat weapon, is listen as "May take one of these" on the unit entry, and listed under the headline "Arcane Wargear" in the Wargear pages.

The situation with the Huskblade and the Animus Vitae in this FAQ is identical to the situation with for example, Agoniser and Djinn Blade.

Long post short. It's been FAQ'd people, play it like it lies.


Last edited by SinisterPlank on Tue Jul 05 2011, 10:52; edited 1 time in total
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GJR [40k]
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Jul 05 2011, 10:30

That does cover the situation discussed here perfectly it would seem - nice find.
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Cailos
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08 2011, 15:43

I have a question about the Djinn Blade. Can you buy two of them? That would make it with the 4 basic attacks one for having two CCW and +2 from both Blade coming in at 9 attacks 10 on the charge but you have the chance of hitting yourself.
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08 2011, 17:21

I would say no. "Unwritten law" allow You to take options from list only once, unless mentioned You may take more.

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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 28 2011, 19:08

Sorry for reviving this bit.

I was rethinking Archon builds, trying to create a Grot babysitter. I guess, a Blaster would be nice, since he won't Fleet anyway. The Blaster replaces his pistol or ccw. Then the Djin Blade came back to mind; I think it's now been established as a genuine weapon but the Codex doesn't list it as -replacing- anything else.

Point being, a Blaster-toting Archon with Djin should still get the +1 attack for wielding 2 ccws, meaning 8 PW attacks when assaulting. Not considering the fact that it might all backfire horribly, of course.

Is my reasoning sound, or am I overlooking something critical here?


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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 28 2011, 19:57

You are correct.

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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 28 2011, 19:58

Sweet. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Dijinn Blade   Dijinn Blade - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 05 2011, 15:09

Can those atacks from Dhin blade be ignored by clone-field?

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